Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:49 am
OK I wont comment, with over 1000 hours in warbirds
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:11 pm
I would have just bailed out to be safe!Stoney wrote:I would have landed with the canopy open and been out right after I stopped, can't figure out why he stay in so long.
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:43 pm
1) Only minimal damge, no gear buckling or it going over on it's back. So that's great. Maybe the prop blades can be straightend out.
2) He didn't do a "masterful" but adequate job landing it.
3) `Have only had flat tires on small taidraggers. On those you keep the tail as low as possible and contact the good wheel first, then the tail wheel, then allow the bad tire to touch at minimum airspeed. He had the tail really high when he touched down. With heavier taildraggers ( I've only flown the T-6, P-51 and TF-51D) there is a lot of momentum and if you hit the brakes too hard it doesn't matter if you hold the stick back, she's going over on the nose. Refer to the pictures of the Chicago based Blue Angels Bearcat photos where the guy slammed on the brakes and went over really hard.
4) Another interesting point is he seemed to come in high with a high sink rate and a lot of speed(low power setting). Notice that sign with the "7" on it. He had 7,000 feet of runway remaining and a lot behind him. So he had plenty of time, however the audio indicates a right crosswind.
Maybe his technique was based on his knowledge of how the Hurricane can ground loop easily and he wished to minimze the chance of major damage. It will fly again!
2) He didn't do a "masterful" but adequate job landing it.
3) `Have only had flat tires on small taidraggers. On those you keep the tail as low as possible and contact the good wheel first, then the tail wheel, then allow the bad tire to touch at minimum airspeed. He had the tail really high when he touched down. With heavier taildraggers ( I've only flown the T-6, P-51 and TF-51D) there is a lot of momentum and if you hit the brakes too hard it doesn't matter if you hold the stick back, she's going over on the nose. Refer to the pictures of the Chicago based Blue Angels Bearcat photos where the guy slammed on the brakes and went over really hard.
4) Another interesting point is he seemed to come in high with a high sink rate and a lot of speed(low power setting). Notice that sign with the "7" on it. He had 7,000 feet of runway remaining and a lot behind him. So he had plenty of time, however the audio indicates a right crosswind.
Maybe his technique was based on his knowledge of how the Hurricane can ground loop easily and he wished to minimze the chance of major damage. It will fly again!
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:07 pm
I can't disagree, but I think we all can agree that some pilots would have bailed out in the air had they known there was a problem like this.marine air wrote:He didn't do a "masterful" but adequate job landing it.
Maybe not masterful as such, but better than many and the plane isn't nearly as bad off as it could have been in the hands of someone else...
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:15 pm
p51 wrote:I can't disagree, but I think we all can agree that some pilots would have bailed out in the air had they known there was a problem like this.marine air wrote:He didn't do a "masterful" but adequate job landing it.
Maybe not masterful as such, but better than many and the plane isn't nearly as bad off as it could have been in the hands of someone else...
That's crazy. Maybe you could find one or two, but I doubt you could find anyone qualified to fly the Hurricane that would, probably not a competent tailwheel pilot, or for that matter anyone with 2-3000 hours who's first preference would be to bail out. OTOH, I'm totally with Stoney about getting out of the cockpit faster, but all kinds of things could affect that decision. Aircraft fires do NOT take long to get out of hand and the gear catching the ground like that was certainly a fire risk.
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:01 am
Apparently there were some strong gusts at the time that may have affected the pilot's decision to land the way he did. In any case, not much damage. Hope they can straighten out the damaged wooden prop blades.
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:46 am
Canadian built Hurricanes use a metal prop on a Packard built Merlin.
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:12 pm
Bailing out of the aircraft is not a guarantee of safety.
Les
Les
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:08 pm
Yes, there are bound to have been factors assessed by the pilot that we don't know about looking at a computer screen.
I've got about 15 hours on our Hurricane IV. One odd characteristic about it is that the flaps partially blank the elevator and stab. Apparently it's a common thing with Hurricanes, but I had never read about it in any of the WWII stuff.
The flaps deploy fully in about :02 seconds, the extension gauge is under your right butt cheek in the darkest part of the cockpit -- you can't see it when you're on approach, and busy -- and when they're fully down if you pull the power to idle, the elevator loses most of its authority and the nose drops.
Perhaps this had something to do with that tail-high touchdown.
We also keep the canopy open for takeoff and landing. In fact we often fly formation with it open as well -- the bird-cage contruction limits visibility.
Dave
I've got about 15 hours on our Hurricane IV. One odd characteristic about it is that the flaps partially blank the elevator and stab. Apparently it's a common thing with Hurricanes, but I had never read about it in any of the WWII stuff.
The flaps deploy fully in about :02 seconds, the extension gauge is under your right butt cheek in the darkest part of the cockpit -- you can't see it when you're on approach, and busy -- and when they're fully down if you pull the power to idle, the elevator loses most of its authority and the nose drops.
Perhaps this had something to do with that tail-high touchdown.
We also keep the canopy open for takeoff and landing. In fact we often fly formation with it open as well -- the bird-cage contruction limits visibility.
Dave
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:03 am
Thanks for explaining those characteristics of the Hurricane. You're the luckiest guy I know. 
I sometimes describe aircraft as "pre-WWII and post WWII engineering." The aircraft I have flown designed before the war tend to have a different design philosophy than the way they built them during and after the the war. Pre-war, you have to lead with the rudder first, then bring in the aileron. the control input may not be balanced and there are other peculiarites such as two trim settings for 80 mph depending on power on or off. Rudder pedals set wide apart, etc.
Post war, controls tend to be balanced and lighter, aircraft tend to be faster, have more range, less drafty in the winter, more creature comforts, weather and night capability. Much less drag and lower sink rates in power off descents. (Example; Aeronca TC Defender/ L-3 compared to post war 7AC)
I sometimes describe aircraft as "pre-WWII and post WWII engineering." The aircraft I have flown designed before the war tend to have a different design philosophy than the way they built them during and after the the war. Pre-war, you have to lead with the rudder first, then bring in the aileron. the control input may not be balanced and there are other peculiarites such as two trim settings for 80 mph depending on power on or off. Rudder pedals set wide apart, etc.
Post war, controls tend to be balanced and lighter, aircraft tend to be faster, have more range, less drafty in the winter, more creature comforts, weather and night capability. Much less drag and lower sink rates in power off descents. (Example; Aeronca TC Defender/ L-3 compared to post war 7AC)
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:01 pm
P51 wrote:
I can't disagree, but I think we all can agree that some pilots would have bailed out in the air had they known there was a problem like this.
Maybe not masterful as such, but better than many and the plane isn't nearly as bad off as it could have been in the hands of someone else...
I can't think of one pilot I have flown with or known in 55 years of flying who would have bailed out of an airplane with just a flat tire. Is there something I am missing?
I can't disagree, but I think we all can agree that some pilots would have bailed out in the air had they known there was a problem like this.
Maybe not masterful as such, but better than many and the plane isn't nearly as bad off as it could have been in the hands of someone else...
I can't think of one pilot I have flown with or known in 55 years of flying who would have bailed out of an airplane with just a flat tire. Is there something I am missing?
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:23 pm
marine air wrote:Thanks for explaining those characteristics of the Hurricane. You're the luckiest guy I know.
I sometimes describe aircraft as "pre-WWII and post WWII engineering." The aircraft I have flown designed before the war tend to have a different design philosophy than the way they built them during and after the the war. Pre-war, you have to lead with the rudder first, then bring in the aileron. the control input may not be balanced and there are other peculiarites such as two trim settings for 80 mph depending on power on or off. Rudder pedals set wide apart, etc.
Post war, controls tend to be balanced and lighter, aircraft tend to be faster, have more range, less drafty in the winter, more creature comforts, weather and night capability. Much less drag and lower sink rates in power off descents. (Example; Aeronca TC Defender/ L-3 compared to post war 7AC)
Yes, a classic example of this, particularly regarding aircraft systems, is the P-40 to the P-51. The P-40 has no visual or auditory indication of gear downlock. And thus there are hundreds of photos available of P-40s on their belly by the side of the runway. But the next-generation-fighter, the P-51, abandoned that gear system entirely, and created one that is sensible and practical.
The pre-war Lysander is a large aeroplane, complicated, with a bizarre system of flaps and slats to enable slow flight. But it's original role -- battlefield recon and artillery spotting -- was duplicated by a Cub, a vastly simpler and cheaper machine which during the war was extremely available.
And I appreciate my own good fortune, believe me!
Dave
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:34 pm
Regarding bail-out, the consensus amongst the pilots where I fly at VWoC is that if the aircraft is on fire, burning, and you can't get it on the ground in a minute or so, then it is wisest to abandon it.
The same would apply after a collision, as per Duxford several years ago (P-51 vs Skyraider), if the aircraft is clearly no longer controllable.
The Owner of the collection would endorse that, and follow it.
But for most conditions we work the problem -- never give up, never surrender! I personally had the green gear lights not illuminate in the Hurricane at an airshow a couple of years back. The idea of jumping never occured. (I held off, waited for the Chief AME to get by the runway with binoculars, did a low flyby, waved at the crowd canopy back, got a thumbs-up, and landed. It turned out that the bulbs were burned out -- bad supplier.)
Dave
The same would apply after a collision, as per Duxford several years ago (P-51 vs Skyraider), if the aircraft is clearly no longer controllable.
The Owner of the collection would endorse that, and follow it.
But for most conditions we work the problem -- never give up, never surrender! I personally had the green gear lights not illuminate in the Hurricane at an airshow a couple of years back. The idea of jumping never occured. (I held off, waited for the Chief AME to get by the runway with binoculars, did a low flyby, waved at the crowd canopy back, got a thumbs-up, and landed. It turned out that the bulbs were burned out -- bad supplier.)
Dave
Re: FHC Hurricane incident. No injuries.
Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:36 pm
This conversation reminds me of what Kermit Weeks says in his P-51 "Kermie Cam" video - that although he wears a parachute, there is no way he'd jump out of the aircraft, unless there was a sizable fire or the wing came off.