Warbird Information Exchange

That policy was in place when they were surplused, I would think. None of them could have "guns" then could they?

I can't remember if I posted this before...Great photo, US Coast Guard bird.........

yep, to much count chocula!!! are my fangs showing from the sugar buzz???

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

re that lovely colour shot of the RCAF Canso A, 11041, and to answer the question posed, that is a clipper bow but there were different shapes. That particular one was used on post-war RCAF Cansos when they were used as freighters etc and you will note the astro dome on top of it. Many Canso As subsequently surplussed on to the civil market retained the bow shape but lost the dome. Note also that the blisters have been removed. Super Cat N31235 (the green and red one illustrated a few posts back) has a different shape clipper bow - much more rounded.

Incidentally, 11041 did not have a commercial career as it was lost in an accident at Prince Rupert, BC on 30th June 1959.

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David Legg
Editor, The Catalina News
The Catalina Society
Author: Consolidated PBY Catalina - The Peacetime Record

BLR - yes, thats a clipper bow, with one huge astrodome installed, as is the Super Cat picture that Joe and Swede were flying. I actually have a copy of an RCAF water flying manual.

Tom - the type of certification the Cat received was the same as for a DC-3. Under the old certification CAR's - Civil Aviation Regulations. Specifically CAR 3, 4b. When the PBY was certified, the submitter wished for it to be certified as an "air carrier" type airplane. Hence, the greater restrictions to ensure public safety. Indeed, many Cats were used in the airline industry.

Today this certification would be under FAR (Federal Aviation Regualtions) Part 25, which is of course much more stringent.
Many so called "warbirds" are usually of "Limited" or "Experimental" category and provide for more flexibility for "guns" etc. But, these types cant be used in any kind of airline service. The Limiteds that do fly for compensation or hire (like Liberty Belle) do so under an Exemption from the rule. These are issued by FAA HQ and have attendant provisions that must be adhered to, allowing for public safety. Provisions such as, maintenance and pilot requirements, and weather requirements etc.

The Limiteds were initially used in a Corporate role. Some "Limited" examples are the B-17, B-25 and TBM.
It can be much more involved than what I've superficially posted here, but it provides a layman with some type of idea as to why things were done in the manner they were.

Anyway, its certainly a minor deal, as far as a Cat goes, since once on the surface for display, you can stick a .30 out of the turret if one wishes. Since these airplanes suffer from anemic S.Eng. performance, I'd want to hedge all I can in my favor anyway. I also performance load the airplane for this reason too, depending on density altitude, winds etc.

I hope this simple explanation will help some folks to realize the bigger picture. The type of certification for the Cat simply provided for public safety in an air carrier role for which it was certified post war.

Don't want to disagree, but insn't that just a faired over nose? The turret ring and bomb window are there on that Canso picture. It is a lovely shot however. I think the Clipper bow is a whole new built up nose that retains almost none of the original nose structure. That nose still has the "snub" nose characterized by the bomb aimer window....

Note on the clipper bow, it extends well above and forward of the end of the planing hull, while the snub nose is defined by the bomb window. Clipper bows generally have "bumpers" on them...

Hi David,
I used to work on and fly in (in that order) PBY N9521C before Fighter Factory owned it. The late Gus Vincent of Tiburon, CA kept the airplane at Sonoma County, Santa Rosa Airport from 1990-1993. 1991 saw the addition of the nose turret installed by two brothers that worked at Redwood Aviation. Two years later the blisters were added on the airframe by the same two brothers that then worked at Aerocrafter's, Inc. of Santa Rosa. Gus had for years collected parts for the nose turret. We had planned to install a dummy twin .30 caliber in that turret. The opening where the gun barrels would stick out was faired over with another section of Plexiglas. I had restored a turret that would house a single .50 caliber. The nose bowl Plexiglas had cut outs for the barrel. Gus also had a Plexiglas dome that fit into the top of the turret and would be secured with two or four over center latches. That dome was originally for the gunner to stay out of the wind during the firing of the guns. En route to several air shows that we went to throughout California you might see someone standing in the opening of the turret. It was quite breezy flogging along at 100 kts. My avatar picture was taken from the turret opening. I have pictures of the un-restored, and restored PBY turrets if anyone is interested.
Jim Long

Yes, you're right Joe, that RCAF Cat is faired over. The Super Cat sports the clipper. Interestingly, the TC had it incorrectly labelled or spelled as a "slipper" bow.

Knowing the owners of Aerocrafters/Sonoma Jet Center, I heard some interesting tales about Gus and that turret!

I think it would be unique if the Factory installs the completed turret that is on hand. They're so busy with so many projects there, plus all the requisite maintenance on all the flying airplanes, its tough to always devote time to all projects.
A little at a time is the best that can be done sometimes. New fuel quick drains were installed and re-routed recently in the tower portion, and the entire nosewheel assembly was rebuilt.

Completing the B-25 is a focus at the moment.

The last few mails are interesting inasmuch as they, at least to me, pose the question "When is a clipper bow not a clipper bow?". I have always used the term in a generic sense to cover any Catalina bow where the turret has been removed and faired over so, for example, that would cover the RCAF Canso A as illustrated a few messages back, a full conversion where all of the turret and associated fittings have been removed or where the top turret has been removed but the mechansim remains under a fibreglass cover or similar. Examples of the latter are EC-EVK in Spain as I understand it and, until recently,the PBY-6A N9825Z at Moses Lake although I believe the innards have now been removed.

Is there in fact an 'official' clipper bow conversion as opposed to just the generic term? Any thoughts Joe?

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David Legg
Editor, The Catalina News
The Catalina Society
Author: Consolidated PBY Catalina - The Peacetime Record

In the industry, you're right David, we use the term generically. That said, the TC does refer to a Convair drawing #28B 15001 B as being "installed".
As you know, there's a "hodpodge" of creations out there for the bow.

By the way, I've had your book since it was published. Immense and detailed work. Thank you for composing it. I'm sure it was daunting!

The Clipper bow is a definitive modification and all aircraft that posses the mod are perhaps traceable to the original PBY-5R modification performed by Consolidated during the war for the sole example of that transport. I have never seen drawings or photos of that plane, but when our N31235 passed thru San Diego for rework, it may have carried drawings for NAS Seattle to construct the noses on the four Transocean Aircraft.

To begin a short study, lets look at the French PBY, clearly sporting a Clipper bow, and the characteristic rounded shape of the conversion.


Contrast this with a "Fake" clipper nose, the stalwart Tanker 85 of Washington State, USA. This one has a nose that is fiberglass, a Hemet Valley thing, and distinctive in shape. Its smooth and featureless when inspected close, but has turret formers and ring underneath. This is aerodynamic only. Tow views...

]




The Standard Clipper Profile of these noses is fairly uniform when you look across the board, and they all must have been built to a common specification. Only the afterthough turret patch overs have the variations seen, from the extreme of N2886D to the more standard "snub" nose seen on the Canso in the picture on the first page of the thread..
N322FA a standard "Clipper Bow" and identical seemingly to the next couple planes...

N4760C



Note the slightly different countour of the Plane Sailing aircraft...



see here the complete reforming and reskinning of the upper nose, defined by the different color aluminum...


Close up...



And finally another snub turret nose, and note where the walk shelf terminates, very close to the tip of the nose, where the clipper bow extends both forward and above the original lines of the plane...

ALL RIGHT!! Way to go PBYer's! 31325 lookin' good Joe. Seems like I heard from one of the former wrench twisters-now FAA inspectors on PBY@yahoo that the Fed won't certify a PBY for water landings in US airspace with a turret because of water entry risk.
Comments David or Joe?

Doug Ratchford -Canso42
member PBY@yahoo
'the PBY guy' @ Lone Star
plane capt. (static) N68740 PBY-5A


P.S Anybody with odds n ends of small loose PBY parts (don't have to be airworthy) let me know. I'm interested in acquiring some odd small parts as a personal purchase to donate to 'ol 740' at Lone Star. PM me here or email me at Ratch4@yahoo.com

How's a nearly ten-year thread bump suit you? While researching two photos I came across and scanned in at the National Archives last month I came across this thread and post. What is fun about the PBY-5R, if sources are correct, is that she was also the first Catalina ampbib. Photos for you, dated February 9 of 1945:

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Tracy White
Researcher@Large

Those are incredible photos of the -5R....I wish the Bu # was visible...its kinda there so we may figure it out. In fact I may have it listed.

As far as it being an amphibian, that,s clearly not the case. What is amazing is that the plane appears to be Bu # 1245, and was the prototype XPBY-5A amphibian, though in the photos I have of that one she is clearly the last PBY-4 with the dash four vertical fin and rudder and dash four engines, cowlings and spinners.

Was this plane Consolidated owned, rebuilt to PBY-5A standard and then de-converted to the 5 configuration for "executive" or vip conversion? With the removal of the landing gear she would have had a much more spacious fuselage for executive transport. Seems the windows preclude the conclusion she was for cargo use.

Can any PBY guys chime in? The nose though is a dead ringer for the nose on N31235, N322FA N2763A and even the Bird Innovator and many others...

This is a good thread....

... the Clipper Bow is a "factory designed" and authentic PBY nose option!!!!

The best seat in a PBY is the bubble on a water landing:)

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