My Warbirds in "Fresh Water" List, US & CAN

[Dave Hadfield]

If a Great Lakes crash aircraft lies below the zebra mussel zone, it's metal may be still pretty good.

But above that, the metal will only of value for historical/documentary purposes. Worthless as a machine.

I think the great treasure trove of WWII aircraft is in the Black Sea. The deep parts there are anoxic.

[camshaw]

there is rumored to be a RAF 4 engine bomber in lake simcoe,ontario CN....I sonar scaned some of the lake to no avail, we've heard rumors of a few local divers knowing its location and rumors of them bringing up suveniers but still no more details....heard it broke thru the ice after landing, there are a few other crashes in simcoe,but only fatalities so bunches of twisted metal covered in zebra mussles....found a really intach frigget with tall masts and ropes still intach when we were there...

[Fleet16b]

there is rumored to be a RAF 4 engine bomber in lake simcoe,ontario CN....I sonar scaned some of the lake to no avail, we've heard rumors of a few local divers knowing its location and rumors of them bringing up suveniers but still no more details....heard it broke thru the ice after landing, there are a few other crashes in simcoe,but only fatalities so bunches of twisted metal covered in zebra mussles....found a really intach frigget with tall masts and ropes still intach when we were there...

FYI , Ken E passed away over a year ago

[Fleet16b]

there is rumored to be a RAF 4 engine bomber in lake simcoe,ontario CN....I sonar scaned some of the lake to no avail, we've heard rumors of a few local divers knowing its location and rumors of them bringing up suveniers but still no more details....heard it broke thru the ice after landing, there are a few other crashes in simcoe,but only fatalities so bunches of twisted metal covered in zebra mussles....found a really intach frigget with tall masts and ropes still intach when we were there...

The aircraft was located by a dive team that was hired by a Recovery Group.
It was raised with air balloons but kept below the surface . The divers then tried to re-negotiate their fee and the Recovery Team rejected this.
It was then moved to a hidden location in the lake where it is rumoured to still be sitting.

[Fleet16b]

The Blackburn Shark in the water in Canada would be a really rare one to recover

[camshaw]

yes cam you told me about ken, loved that guy, what a nice man........had alot of laughs with him.....thats good to hear about the lanc being found....the mussles in simcoe were bad, but still an awesome story for sure!....somebody needs to find the p51 we searched for!

[bdk]

From another thread about a year and a half ago:

And a few more possibles from the Chicago Tribune:

Probable T-6 (ed. note: civilian), April 27, 1948, about 500 yards off Washington Park in Wilmette (2 fatal, plane ditched and sank, pilot and passenger were seen to get out but rescuers couldn't reach them in time).

http://news.wilmettelibrary.info/1695892/data?n=103

The body of Lewis Sherman III of Milwaukee washed up from Lake Michigan at the foot of Hamilton street, Evanston, on Saturday. Mr. Sherman was killed after his plane crashed into the lake off Washington park, Wilmette, on Tuesday, April 27 [1948].

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1948 ... ks-in-lake

Wealthy 28-year-old Milwaukee executive Lewis Sherman III based the plane at Maitland Field in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He was a vice-president in the Jewett & Sherman Co., prominent coffee roasters.

I have been unable to figure out what kind of plane it was that he ditched. It appears that he was actually alone in the plane.

[Chris Brame]

My best guess from the article was that it was an AT-6:

"low-wing monoplane"
"The ATC plane is a type used as a trainer by the air forces, and many have been sold to private pilots as war surplus."

[bdk]

My best guess from the article was that it was an AT-6:

"low-wing monoplane"
"The ATC plane is a type used as a trainer by the air forces, and many have been sold to private pilots as war surplus."

Sounds like a good guess. The ATC was probably a typo from AT-6. If not for that, it could have been a BT-13 or even a PT-19.

[wendovertom]

The B-25 in Spring Bay will be long gone as the Northern end of the Great Salt Lake is especially salty (more than 5% and the ocean is about 3.5%).

Tom P.

[camshaw]

keep this list going folks...we need more recoveries,time is ticking...

[tobbill72]

The last entry for Tom Grafmiller is my mom's husband's plane. He nor the F-86 were ever located, but believed to be in Lake Huron from what she has said and the news articles that I have seen.

Can't find any fresh water F-86A/E/F or H, but here are three F-86Ds:

52-4182 - 62nd FIS; w/o 10Oct56 in Lake Michigan, 47 miles NE of Milwaukee, WI after mid-air with 52-4194, Capt Carlton Ova Berry ejected but body not found

52-4194 - 62nd FIS; w/o 10Oct56 in Lake Michigan, 47 miles NE of Milwaukee, WI after mid-air with 52-4182, 2/Lt Kenneth Richard Hughes ejected and picked up after 3 hours in water

53-735 - 1st FIW; w/o 26Sep59, disappeared over Lake Huron, 1/Lt Jay T. Grafmiller (killed/missing?)

[cooper9411]

B 25 ran out of fuel trying to make landing at Allegheny Co airport ditched in Mon River down stream of Braddock Pa just missing the Homestead High Level bridge. 2 killed 3 swam to shore think 1957. Bodies airplane never found big local legend to this day.

2 rumors surrounding this plane ; 1) militaty went in under cover of darkness and salvaged sensitive equipment and then sank a barge on top of it 2) the current was stronger than expected and the plane is way further west from where the search was conducted.

[6trn4brn]

B-29 Lady of the Lake in AK is actually a B-50 that was doing weather recon when it had a gear collapse on landing at EielsonAFB. Some VIP was coming for a visit so the plane was stripped of anything usable and pushed into the lake by a bulldozer. Can't remember what year or any other particulars as it has been more than 35 years since I first laid eyes on her. She was in very bad condition with thousands of bullet holes from target shooters when I saw her, so I am sure she is none the better now.

[jdeters79]

There is speculation that a B-29 (s/n 44-61721) ended up in Red Lake in Northern Minnesota, on 15 July 1945, although it has never been located. The crew bailed out at 9,500 ft (at night) due to a fuel leak in the aircraft after taking off from Duluth. The flight engineer was unconscious at the time bail out was ordered, but he was pushed out the hatch and landed safely. The crew was recovered near Big Fork, MN, slightly more than half way between Duluth and Red Lake. The crew stated the aircraft was on autopilot on a heading that would have it heading towards Montana.

http://minnesotabrown.com/2014/03/70-year-mystery-skies-itasca-county.html

http://ww2f.com/threads/b-29-disappears-after-crew-bales-out-1945.48637/

I spoke with a gentleman (Richard G. King) who was to have crewed that aircraft out of Pyote, TX, but his aircraft commander refused to take the airplane due to a previously squawked fuel leak. Richard was a central fire control gunner on -29's and commented that the autopilot was not an altitude holding autopilot. He also pointed out that bail out from the B-29 was accomplished by exiting through a hatch that required dropping the nose gear. If the autopilot was a pitch hold type system, it might not be unreasonable that the additional drag of the nose gear hanging down induced a slow rate of descent that the autopilot would not have compensated for.

Lower Red Lake is ~66 Nm from the location where some of the crew were recovered. If the aircraft continued on at 200 mph, it would have required a rate of descent of ~360 ft/min to descend from 9,500 ft MSL at Napoleon Lake (location where one crew member was recovered) to 1,200 ft MSL at Red Lake (approximate altitude of Red Lake).

This accident is listed on this Wikipedia page (see 15 July 1945);

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_(1945%E2%80%931949)

I'm not familiar with the B-29 autopilot, so I have no idea if this is a reasonable theory or not. Otherwise, the B-29 could be in the mountains/woods of Montana or Canada, or who knows where...