P-51 B/C Tooling
Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:10 pm
With the various P-51 B/C projects recently built or nearing completion, I wonder if anyone with knowledge of any of the projects can give us some insight into who produces what parts. Pacific Fighters has built several, Aircorp is building one now, and Art Teeters did Kermits. My question is, did each of these shops make their own form blocks, jigs, etc., or are resources pooled to bring the cost down?
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 am
No answers, but another question:
How "true" B/C are they? I think I read somewhere they are based on D parts? As in the fuselage/wing being different from an original B/C?
How "true" B/C are they? I think I read somewhere they are based on D parts? As in the fuselage/wing being different from an original B/C?
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:53 am
Rob, I believe each of those shops have their own jigs and tooling that they have all made themselves for their own projects. Of course Cal Pacific has done two P-51B/C's, an A-36 wing, and currently a P-51A. Pacific Fighters has done four P-51B/C projects and is working on a fifth as well as a P-51A. Odegaard has done the wings for the Beck P-51A (both times, I believe), the CAF P-51C (three different times), and the P-51C "Lope's Hope 3rd". At least one of the guys at AirCorps Aviation, currently finishing up the P-51C "Lope's Hope 3rd", was deeply involved in the original restoration of the CAF P-51C the first two times, the Beck P-51A, and of course the AirCorps company was involved in the repair/restoration of the CAF P-51C airframe again this past year. I know each of these shops can and have built up these types of airframes from the most basic of parts. I know Cal Pacific and another firm build the longerons, and I believe both Pacific Fighters and AirCorps source those items.
Fouga, it all depends on which particular restoration you're talking about, but the majority are in-fact either very or completely B/C-true (most of which have been built up new from the original drawings anyway). You might be thinking of the "Polar Bear" P-51A, which, as I like to think of it, is an Allison-engined P-51D with A-model accents (the main fuselage, wing and wing leading edges, and perhaps the tail surfaces too, are from a P-51D). The B/C and D longerons are the same, but they are quite different on the A, and this results in a more lean fuselage, mounted closer to the wing, on the original/true A's.
Each of the B/C's flying today have B/C-type/style wings, with the early leading edges, but a few have D-model gun bay doors, and at least one has some D-model type gear well stuff/gear door mechanisms. Most have the correct B/C upper cowlings, but a few have D-model upper cowlings. At least one of the B-models has the battery installed in the engine compartment rather than aft of the cockpit, as they all were originally, and this has resulted in there being a battery vent scoop on the left side of the cowlings and some drain tubes running out the back/underneath the rear right wing fillet that you would never see on B/C's originally, and are details more in-line with late-model D's. The main fuselage structure on "Princess Elizabeth" is from a D - you can tell based on a grouping of rivets and panel line just behind the cockpit, below where the A-frame rollover structure is fitted, that is angled on the original P-51B/C fuselage, but is straight up and down on the D-model fuselage (however, the wing on "Liz" is from a P-51B and the tail from a P-51C, as I recall, and following its restoration at Pacific Fighters in the late 90's/early 2000's, it is very stock/true to the original P-51B/C's). With so much of these P-51B/C's being built brand new from the drawings now, some are shaping up very true to the original lines/contours of the originals, but with a couple I have noticed a discrepancy in the line/contour of the panels from the windscreen-to-firewall-to-upper cowls section - on all of the originals, the P-51B/C is described as having a "hump", where the line/contour from the windscreen to the firewall continues straight, and then the line/contour angles downward to the nose creating a convex type contour/angle over the firewall, but on a couple of the P-51B's flying today, the line/contour from the windscreen to the firewall angles downward, so much so that it creates a concave contour/angle over the firewall as the line transitions to the upper cowlings (not a major thing, it's just that once you notice it, it is hard not to).
Fouga, it all depends on which particular restoration you're talking about, but the majority are in-fact either very or completely B/C-true (most of which have been built up new from the original drawings anyway). You might be thinking of the "Polar Bear" P-51A, which, as I like to think of it, is an Allison-engined P-51D with A-model accents (the main fuselage, wing and wing leading edges, and perhaps the tail surfaces too, are from a P-51D). The B/C and D longerons are the same, but they are quite different on the A, and this results in a more lean fuselage, mounted closer to the wing, on the original/true A's.
Each of the B/C's flying today have B/C-type/style wings, with the early leading edges, but a few have D-model gun bay doors, and at least one has some D-model type gear well stuff/gear door mechanisms. Most have the correct B/C upper cowlings, but a few have D-model upper cowlings. At least one of the B-models has the battery installed in the engine compartment rather than aft of the cockpit, as they all were originally, and this has resulted in there being a battery vent scoop on the left side of the cowlings and some drain tubes running out the back/underneath the rear right wing fillet that you would never see on B/C's originally, and are details more in-line with late-model D's. The main fuselage structure on "Princess Elizabeth" is from a D - you can tell based on a grouping of rivets and panel line just behind the cockpit, below where the A-frame rollover structure is fitted, that is angled on the original P-51B/C fuselage, but is straight up and down on the D-model fuselage (however, the wing on "Liz" is from a P-51B and the tail from a P-51C, as I recall, and following its restoration at Pacific Fighters in the late 90's/early 2000's, it is very stock/true to the original P-51B/C's). With so much of these P-51B/C's being built brand new from the drawings now, some are shaping up very true to the original lines/contours of the originals, but with a couple I have noticed a discrepancy in the line/contour of the panels from the windscreen-to-firewall-to-upper cowls section - on all of the originals, the P-51B/C is described as having a "hump", where the line/contour from the windscreen to the firewall continues straight, and then the line/contour angles downward to the nose creating a convex type contour/angle over the firewall, but on a couple of the P-51B's flying today, the line/contour from the windscreen to the firewall angles downward, so much so that it creates a concave contour/angle over the firewall as the line transitions to the upper cowlings (not a major thing, it's just that once you notice it, it is hard not to).
Last edited by JohnTerrell on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:33 am
I wondered if one of the restorers took a deep breath and tooled up, betting that they would be able to sell parts or structures to amortize the cost. Sounds like that has happened with wings at Odegaard.
When Princess Elizabeth was built (as Shangri La), it had a D wing from Israel and the fuselage was built in Pete Regina's garage, using a lot of D model parts. That was probably 20 years before anyone else attempted a B/C. Very exciting at the time.
When Princess Elizabeth was built (as Shangri La), it had a D wing from Israel and the fuselage was built in Pete Regina's garage, using a lot of D model parts. That was probably 20 years before anyone else attempted a B/C. Very exciting at the time.
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:59 am
From Pete Regina's own telling, the wing on "Shangri-La/Princess Elizabeth" is from a P-51B which he found in El Monte, California at the time. It was in pretty bad shape and was lacking the outer wing extensions and clam shell doors (he was eventually able to find one original and make a reverse copy of it), but it was basically the one item that assured Pete that he could complete a B/C model. The tail section and some of the spine skins and some of the upper fuselage frames come from an F-6C that was at Hayward and was sectioned-up in the late 50's- fortunately this section had been saved and was being kept by Mike Bogue for use of the tail gear components and some others parts in his P-51D restoration at the time (it is the identity of this F-6C/P-51C tail section that the aircraft uses/is registered as). The main section of the fuselage originates from a P-51D pulled out of Israel, and to build up the high-back upper fuselage/spine, Pete took plaster casts of the Tallmantz P-51C (that Kermit Weeks now owns and had restored) that he could make tools from. At the time, Pete found P-51B/C bits and pieces like the windscreen, lower B/C cowlings, instrument panel, etc., at different aircraft parts dealers and shops which couldn't make use of them, being for a type that no one was working on/restoring at the time (if I recall correctly, the tail fin fillet on the restored P-51B "Impatient Virgin" is an original NAA-produced item, that had survived all of these years never with a purpose up until when that plane was built up).
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:06 pm
RobC wrote:I wondered if one of the restorers took a deep breath and tooled up, betting that they would be able to sell parts or structures to amortize the cost. Sounds like that has happened with wings at Odegaard.
I seem to recall Art Teeters mentioning something about how they had gotten rid of the tooling that they had done for "Ina the Macon Belle" after they had completed that one, and the resulting disappointment in having done so, as they thought they would never do another B/C again since at the time there were no other known candidates to restore...(then, some years later, of course came the Jack Roush B-model project, and that led Art Teeters/Cal Pacific to have to essentially build a whole P-51B completely from scratch all over again). I definitely see Pacific Fighters having specialized/honed a niche in P-51B/C restorations, as they continue to pump a new one out now every few years - their part in the restoration of "Princess Elizabeth" completed in 2002, "Betty Jane" completed in 2004, "Impatient Virign" completed in 2008, "Berlin Express" completed in 2014, and they currently seem to have an RAF B-model underway.
Not touched on yet is the restoration of the P-51C at the Warhawk Air Museum, which I don't know/haven't read that much about concerning how that restoration went and how much was handled in-house and what, if anything, was outsourced (besides of course the engine).
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:26 pm
Does anyone know where one might buy an authentic P-51D throttle quadrant? Doesn't have to be 1940's vintage.
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:46 pm
where did John Paul's A-36 go?
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:49 pm
It was sold to the Collings Foundation many years ago, restored at American Aero Services (wing restored by Cal Pacific), becoming the Oshkosh award-winner "Baby Carmen".
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:45 pm
JohnTerrell wrote:It was sold to the Collings Foundation many years ago, restored at American Aero Services (wing restored by Cal Pacific), becoming the Oshkosh award-winner "Baby Carmen".
You would have thought, with all the other Allisons in JCP's stable, that he would have preferred to stick with the A-36.
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:42 am
Thanks John! I was indeed thinking of "Polar bear".
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:25 am
JohnTerrell wrote:It was sold to the Collings Foundation many years ago, restored at American Aero Services (wing restored by Cal Pacific), becoming the Oshkosh award-winner "Baby Carmen".
Where has she been since? Not on display anywhere thats for sure.
Re: P-51 B/C Tooling
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:24 am
In most cases if you can buy a part from another shop, it is usually less expensive than making it yourself. Most of the shops will hit the easy button and buy something long before they will attempt to make it.