Rebuilt/replica Griffon P-51s Red Baron and Miss Ashley II?

[Zac Yates]

It is interesting hearing this project called a "replica" - why not an original "Red Baron II"?

Only because I didn't think to say RB2.

[GRNDP51]

I think the era of unlimited air racing is approaching an eventual conclusion. I'm more interested in seeing the racers for their history than their actual race performance. I wish "Galloping Ghost" had been saved as a piece of history rather than risked in the Unlimited Gold Class Race. Mr. Leeward was also a super neat guy to talk with.
That being said, maybe there is financial energy in the cosmos somewhere to build up one more unlimited piston racer type aircraft.An aircraft that would set all the piston records once and for all. My suggestion would be a P-51A fuselage with redeisgned canopy and glass. P-51H tail except with a moving horizontal from an F-86, Citation, or some other small jet. Wings P-51H but lightened and maybe update the airfoil and shorten, but add winglets. Scratch built landing gear and other components. Engine, well there are many fine Merlin and Griffon variants that would be acceptable. Prop blades experimental of course.
My guess is that what keeps the Mustang racers from going any faster is the wing airfoil , the high drag wing root areas, and the fixed horizontal stabilizer.
I got a couple flights in a Piaggio P180 last year. An amazing prop driven aircraft with only 1600 pounds of thrust. I suggest they look at it's airfoil, and other aerodynamics.

I hate to admit it, but I think you are correct. I don't see Air Racing lasting longer than another 5 to 7 years at the most in Reno. Unless RARA is able to secure more sponsorship and/or is able to garner more attention from Unlimited race owners, I see it on the decline. The city of Reno is apathetic about air racing. This is evident through their lack of financial support/sponsorship.

Next year, the only "fast" Unlimited Gold that might race would be Strega. Some of the Unlimited Gold racers who no longer compete:

- Voodoo
- Rare Bear
- Dago Red
- Czech Mate

Strega is an unknown at this point. Tiger has threatened retirement many times before. Fortunately for us, he is still racing Strega.

Even if Strega continues racing, it is still some 50-60 mph or so faster than the next contender. With no competition, interest will wane, imo.

I hope I'm wrong.

Strega will be back, Tiger said she's 72 and not ready to retire a couple days ago on Facebook. And there might be a Unlimited title sponsor in the works. More on that in the coming months. It ain't over til it's over.

[Ed Likes]

On the subject of the Red Baron I interviewed Brad Sherk in 2002 at Plymouth Indiana. The article I wrote along with some photos was in the September/ October issue of Warbirds Intl. Volume 21 Number 5. Brad was a cool guy, and at that time was serious about trying to put together enough parts for a viable project to then sell. As he was also working on building a P-51A. I have not talked to Brad in a number of years now I need to see if I can touch base with him again.
I think that Brad sold all that he had built up for both a new build Red Baron and the P-51A project, but to who I don't know. All I know is that the pieces of the original Red Baron which Brad had plus some other stuff is now is the hands of Pacific Fighters. What direction this may take I certainly don't know. If anyone can put together a New Red Baron I would put my money on Pacific Fighters my 2 cents worth

[C VEICH]

Some of the Unlimited Gold racers who no longer compete:

- Voodoo
- Rare Bear
- Dago Red
- Czech Mate

I believe you can add September Fury to that list as well. At least as long as it is owned by Rod Lewis. Of course I guess any of those listed could return under new ownership but only time will tell.

Last edited by C VEICH on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[OD/NG]

Strega will be back, Tiger said she's 72 and not ready to retire a couple days ago on Facebook. And there might be a Unlimited title sponsor in the works. More on that in the coming months. It ain't over til it's over.

That's good to know, I hope all of that pans out! The Reno Air Races are in desperate need of help.

[OD/NG]

double post - disregard

Last edited by OD/NG on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[OD/NG]

I believe you can add September Fury to that list as well. At least as long as it is owned by Rod Lewis. Of course I guess any of those listed could return under new ownership but only time will tell.

Yes, I forgot about September Fury! True statement on selling, but Rod doesn't sell airplanes - he only collects them.

[JohnTerrell]

On the subject of the Red Baron I interviewed Brad Sherk in 2002 at Plymouth Indiana. The article I wrote along with some photos was in the September/ October issue of Warbirds Intl. Volume 21 Number 5. Brad was a cool guy, and at that time was serious about trying to put together enough parts for a viable project to then sell. As he was also working on building a P-51A. I have not talked to Brad in a number of years now I need to see if I can touch base with him again.
I think that Brad sold all that he had built up for both a new build Red Baron and the P-51A project, but to who I don't know. All I know is that the pieces of the original Red Baron which Brad had plus some other stuff is now is the hands of Pacific Fighters. What direction this may take I certainly don't know. If anyone can put together a New Red Baron I would put my money on Pacific Fighters my 2 cents worth

The P-51A project you refer to Ed is the same "P-51B/C" fuselage section I refer to in my post. Although Brad Sherk was working on making an Allison-engined high-back Mustang, to be labeled as a P-51A, the fuselage he had made was actually to P-51B/C standard, as the lower longerons were/are of the later B/C/D type, which are a lot different to the P-51A lower longerons and resulting in a deeper side profile through the cockpit section (of course the ribs throughout this section of the fuselage are different/longer as well between the A and the B/C). As such, with a similarity in look/finishes and level of build, I have assumed that the fuselage section that was offered for sale as part of the Pacific Fighters RAF P-51B/C project was the same as what Brad had built which was intended for his Allison-engined Mustang project. (When Gerry Beck originally started on his P-51A project, he also initially built a P-51B/C type fuselage as well, but later scrapped it and built a true P-51A fuselage with the correct A-model lower longerons, which makes a ton of difference in the end result.) Having spent years wondering what may have become of Brad Sherk's Mustang projects, it is nice to know (at least 100% for sure on the Red Baron parts/project and only going on an assumption with the P-51B/C fuselage), where they have gone.

[GRNDP51]

There are actually two Unlimited purse sponsors in the works. A little more than the sad $5,000 that "crowdfunding" did... add another couple zero's...

[leo]

I will admit that there is a bit of a cloud over the races nowadays. There have been money issues, management issues, participation issues both with aircraft, sponsors and fans. The crash in 2011 did not help.
I have been going since 1976, only missed 2 years in that time. I've seen all of this before in varying degrees, including the first year I went when it was cobbled together with whomever they could get to show up. I cannot count the number of times I have heard "this has to be the last year, it's dead" "the unlimited's are too rare and expensive to race". Yet every year it seems to rally and appear in some form. Are some years duds? Yep. But you never know. This year, for example, was called by many the "last year". Only two super planes, no big jet display team, etc. Yet this year was one of the best I have seen in a while. Great warbird show, lots of interesting aircraft on the course and the best final race in years.
It ain't dead yet.

[RandolphB]

Everyone seems to forget that Precious Metal is slowly but surely being rebuilt. Wings and fuselage are on west coast in jigs, and just last week the H empanage was boxed up and shipped out to be mated to the rest.

The only real question on building another Unlimited Racer from a warbird is this: Why would anyone build a racer, that is worth far less than a stock rebuilt aircraft? Back in the day, warbirds were cheap, easy to get parts for, and had lots of folks who worked on them. Now, it has become a select few who work on them, parts are scarce and the expense is outlandish. Mr Lewis owns a number of Unlimited class aircraft, but apparently a majorly expensive divorce as grounded them all until....who knows?

Much as I enjoy the Unlimited class, the spirit of air racing is more than alive in IF 1 and Sport classes. The innovation, competition and pushing the envelope is there- where it can still be afforded. How many know that there is now an international touring set of races for IF 1 called the "World Cup"?

Finally, having spoken at length to RARA about advertising my 9-5 product there, I know they have been working hard and are on the right track.....however the CEO recently retired to deal with his wife's health. All Motorsports are having terrible times- more because today's youth would much rather hot rod a Gamebox than a car or aircraft.....

[GRNDP51]

Everyone seems to forget that Precious Metal is slowly but surely being rebuilt. Wings and fuselage are on west coast in jigs, and just last week the H empanage was boxed up and shipped out to be mated to the rest.

The only real question on building another Unlimited Racer from a warbird is this: Why would anyone build a racer, that is worth far less than a stock rebuilt aircraft? Back in the day, warbirds were cheap, easy to get parts for, and had lots of folks who worked on them. Now, it has become a select few who work on them, parts are scarce and the expense is outlandish. Mr Lewis owns a number of Unlimited class aircraft, but apparently a majorly expensive divorce as grounded them all until....who knows?

Much as I enjoy the Unlimited class, the spirit of air racing is more than alive in IF 1 and Sport classes. The innovation, competition and pushing the envelope is there- where it can still be afforded. How many know that there is now an international touring set of races for IF 1 called the "World Cup"?

Finally, having spoken at length to RARA about advertising my 9-5 product there, I know they have been working hard and are on the right track.....however the CEO recently retired to deal with his wife's health. All Motorsports are having terrible times- more because today's youth would much rather hot rod a Gamebox than a car or aircraft.....

The PM team has been very limited at the info they're giving out, had no idea about the empanage being shipped over, and I follow all the unlimited teams pretty closely. Thom also expressed that he was 50/50 on making it "stock" or keeping it PM. Didn't think he would go the "stock" route especially since it isn't even a "real" P-51. Doesn't seem like that's the plan either... I'm trying to work with RARA all I can to help out the Unlimited's and it's not necessarily over yet. When it's over we will know...

[K5DH]

I'd love to see Unlimited air racing shift to running purpose-built "prototype" airframes, still prop-driven, of course, but no longer based on surplus warplane designs. Imagine a race field made up of fresh, innovative designs built with high-tech materials and powered by exotic engines, maybe even turboprops. The sky's the limit here! (no pun intended). In the early days, air racers were mostly one-offs that were built specifically for the purpose. My idea is sort of a return to the sport's roots. Some people might balk at the use of turboprops, but look at what the gas turbine engine did for unlimited hydroplane racing!

Of course, watching vintage warplanes rip around the pylons is still way cool and it will always be a big crowd pleaser. Perhaps there should be a "warbirds" class with a strict rulebook allowing only very limited and clearly defined modifications to otherwise stock airframes. Such a class would allow more owners to participate because of substantially lower costs (with respect to running an all-out highly modified warbird airframe and engine). There would be less safety risk due to reduced speeds and G-loads. There would be far less stress on the engines since they would not be pushed way beyond their design limits. Best of all, there would be real competition across the field of entrants. Seeing a truly competitive batch of 8 or 10 mostly stock warbirds battling their way around the course sounds pretty exciting to me. Contrast that idea with today's Unlimited racing where only 2 to 3 airframes make up "the race" and the rest are more or less along for a Sunday cruise. IF1 and T-6 racing is pretty exciting stuff. "Stock" warbird racing could be, too!

[Zac Yates]

Everyone seems to forget that Precious Metal is slowly but surely being rebuilt.

Not I! I didn't ask about PM as I follow along through Thom and his team's social media.

All Motorsports are having terrible times- more because today's youth would much rather hot rod a Gamebox than a car or aircraft.....

Again, not I! But I am 30 now so possibly not youth anymore...and I would LOVE an air racing game on Xbox or back on my cellphone...

I'd love to see Unlimited air racing shift to running purpose-built "prototype" airframes, still prop-driven, of course, but no longer based on surplus warplane designs.

Like the Pond Racer? Serious question (and this isn't the place to discuss or debate that design). I too would love to see more purpose-built aircraft but that needs the funding to make it happen. There are three or four Unlimited projects around the USA that have been underway for a long time, in one case since the 1970s (GRNDP51 will know which one I'm talking about), that I think are testament to the "No bucks, no Buck Rogers" aspect of air racing. The Pond Racer and Tsunami are, I think, the only purpose-built Unlimiteds to have made it to Reno or any other event.

I would love to see a separate Warbird/Stock class at Reno. This year's Bronze was almost that, I think each of the Sunday Bronze aircraft were Texas Flying Legends Museum aircraft (and Silver was all unmodified P-51s).

Seeing a truly competitive batch of 8 or 10 mostly stock warbirds battling their way around the course sounds pretty exciting to me. Contrast that idea with today's Unlimited racing where only 2 to 3 airframes make up "the race" and the rest are more or less along for a Sunday cruise.

I wasn't there but many who were have said this year's Gold race was the best they'd ever seen. And that's with the two lead aircraft lapping the last placed machines twice before the checkered flag!

[airnutz]

All Motorsports are having terrible times- more because today's youth would much rather hot rod a Gamebox than a car or aircraft.....

...Or if they're thinking aircraft they're thinking much smaller with much smaller budgets. Drone racing among that group has been growing the past few years...