CAF Nose Art Panels

[retroaviation]

I've informed the folks in charge of the nose art collection here at CAF HQ about your question. However, I'm sure it'll be Monday or so before I get a response.

There are copyright issues and other things I'm not quite sure about with the noseart we have here. After all, I'm just a dumb mechanic-type . I know they don't allow cameras into the noseart room, but hopefully they'll be able to share some of their images with you here on this chat page.

Gary Austin
Crew Chief, B-29/B-24 Squadron
Commemorative Air Force

[retroaviation]

Gary,

Thanks another question for you could you ask the guys if they have an intern program for the conservation side of the panels.

Cheers
RER

Will Do.

GA

[Jase]

Rob,

You might check out the website: www.savethegirls.org

I think the reason they don't allow cameras is to prevent deterioration of the art from flashes, as well as the copyright info that Gary mentioned. Just a guess tho, since "I'se also one o' them greasy mechanic types!"

[Alan Brooks]

Hey Rob! Come on down.... 'specially if you have anything regarding B-29 stuff packed in your bags for Gary! With your eye for research Rob, I think there are 4-5 nose art panels that have not been identified to a particular sn. You may have a better clue or better research material. Anyway, take a tour through "Save the Girls", the museum, and the inside parts storage.... lots of stuff stored, from lots of different airplanes... Alan

[aerojock]

I have a bunch of pictures of the nose art when it was in the bomber hanger in Harlingen. Can I post them without copyright problems?

Aero

[retroaviation]

I have a bunch of pictures of the nose art when it was in the bomber hanger in Harlingen. Can I post them without copyright problems?

Aero

Again, good question. I doubt it though. They have had a copyright on these panels for as long as I can imagine. However, like I mentioned before, I don't know the "rules" as to how all of this copyright stuff works. I will pass the question along though.

Gary Austin

[k5083]

I very much doubt that CAF has a valid copyright in most, if any, of the panels. Copyright would rest with the original artist and for CAF to get it would require a written assignment from the artist or his heirs. Many museums, including art museums and certain private aviation museums, that restrict photography of their exhibits do so precisely because they know they do NOT have a protectible interest in the material and cannot prevent use of photos of it if they permit them to be taken. This, combined with vague bluffing about copyrights, is done either in order to be sure that only the museum can profit from pictures of its exhibits or to protect the interest of the actual copyright holder.

Of course you should check this out before publishing the pics because it is not out of the question that CAF has a copyright assignment in some of the works, and anyway somebody else might have the copyright in them.

August

P.S. Posting on the web counts as publishing.

[Jack Cook]

I very much doubt that CAF has a valid copyright in most, if any, of the panels

I've had talks with a few people familar with these panels and agree that
there is not copywriteable material. Can you imagine Disney goes Bob Tulliuis (Sp) for the Donald Duck on his old P-51? That maybe enforceable but they'd never do it. In my opinion the panels are in the care and custody of the CAF (having been donated to them) and really belong to the American people.

[bdk]

The fact that the artists were employees of the government at the time probably precludes even the artists from claiming copyrights on the art. Any inventions I come up with on my job are the property of my employer, not me!

Disclaimer: I'm no lawyer!

[Jack Cook]

The fact that the artists were employees of the government at the time probably precludes even the artists from claiming copyrights on the art.

That's like saying every personal photo taken by every service person ever belongs to the gov't.
Most of the nose art guys did it in their spare time and the crews usually paid them with a bottle of the good stuff.

Last edited by Jack Cook on Sun May 14, 2006 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[k5083]

The fact that the artists were employees of the government at the time probably precludes even the artists from claiming copyrights on the art. Any inventions I come up with on my job are the property of my employer, not me!

That's not a crazy idea, but two issues are relevant. First, the employer only owns the copyright in your work if it is a "work made for hire," i.e., within the scope of your employment or ordered or commissioned by the employer. (Note that I am NOT talking about "inventions" or patent law here.) I do not think most nose art was created as a work made for hire -- indeed, it was more like vandalism of government property, although of course the services encouraged it when the morale benefits became apparent. It is not my understanding that the USAAF actually commissioned nose art or assigned personnel to paint it, except perhaps in rare instances. Second, the U.S. government itself cannot claim domestic copyright in its works, i.e., works "prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person's official duties." So either the copyright rests with the artist or, if it was a work for hire for the government, it is public domain.

August

[Jack Cook]

What plans does the CAF have for these panels since they're claiming copywrites over them???

[FG1D Pilot]

go to the web site and see what is being done.

[Swiss Mustangs]

Also besides the CAf collection what other musuems or private collection have nose art preserved.

RER

The Swiss AF Museum has a panel of a B-24 nicknamed "Tequila Daisy" on display - this plane suffered from a collapsed nose-gear on landing - 11th July 1944. The panel also shows a beautiful Vargas artwork.

B-24J 44-40168 - 492nd BG 857th BS, code 9H-R - crew of 9 interned

Will post photos asap.

Martin

[RickH]

Rob if you go to Midland, when you introduce yourself just tell them your name is Scott, or Ryan, or Tim,.... well you get the picture.