Thu May 11, 2006 6:43 am
Thanks Dave, I thought it was too coincidental.
swamp ghost
Mon May 15, 2006 1:58 pm
wow this thread sure seems to have died off in a hurry!! does anybody out there have any new info on this recovery effort or should we just bury it with all the others?? any info or pics or press releases out there??
Mon May 15, 2006 10:50 pm
Well
Lots of recent speculation has had this all over the world and I don't believe any of it till as has been said it is in situ anywhere else.
I did think there was a recent "go" at getting it out but theat seems to have fizzeled out.
As I have said before I would go for the "other" B17 in PNG at the Black Cat pass - at least that aircraft has a fantastic battle history(RAF ,Pearl Harbour , phillipines and Australia) and provenance and whilst banged up is probably more complete
Lots of recent speculation has had this all over the world and I don't believe any of it till as has been said it is in situ anywhere else.
I did think there was a recent "go" at getting it out but theat seems to have fizzeled out.
As I have said before I would go for the "other" B17 in PNG at the Black Cat pass - at least that aircraft has a fantastic battle history(RAF ,Pearl Harbour , phillipines and Australia) and provenance and whilst banged up is probably more complete
Mon May 15, 2006 11:49 pm
I personally wouldnt turn down either one, but if I had my choice....
Just like John,
the black cat pass bird of course.
Just like John,
the black cat pass bird of course.
Tue May 16, 2006 12:01 am
A little potted history from the Pacificwrecks site - duly acknowledged
B-17 At Black Cat Pass
by Steve Birdsall
For years this wreck was shrouded in mystery. It should have been easily identified by the numbers painted on the tail, 41-9234, a B-17E delivered by Boeing in Seattle on May 26th 1942. But this Fortress displayed RAF markings on the fuselage and wings, and British serial number FL461 although there are no records of any British or Australian units ever flying B-17's in the Southwest Pacific.
Fifty three years ago the B-17 at Black Cat Pass had been just one of 32 brand new Flying Fortresses delivered to Cheyenne Wyoming, USA, bound for Britain as part of the Lend-Lease Agreement. Boeing applied basic RAF markings but also displayed their original USAAF radio call numbers on their tails. These would be painted over after the aircraft arrived in England. However, during the first week of August 1942, four of these B-17s 41-9196, 41-9234, 41-9235 and 41-9244 were ordered to Hamilton Field in CA where they were flown to Hawaii and down to Australia to join the 19th Bomb Group.
Within 3 months, 2 of the 4 were lost. 41-9196 lost with Lt. Earl Hagerman on October 5, 1942 during a morning raid on Vunakanau Airstrip at Rabaul. 41-9235 ditched off Cooktown on October 29, 1942. When the 19th Bomb Group went home in late 1942, 41-9234 and 41-9244 were passed on to the 43rd Bomb Group, based at Seven Mile Strip near Port Moresby.
Although the Japanese had suffered major setbacks in New Guinea, they appeared determined to hold Lae and Salamaua at all costs. Aliied aircraft continually patrolled the sea lanes from Rabaul to the Huon Gulf and on January 6th a convoy, reported as "two light cruisers, four destroyers and four medium transports" was sighted heading for Lae. The convoy was battered by Allied aircraft over the next two days, but it reached Lae on January 8th.
And so began a desperate day as Allied airmen battled though foul weather and aggressive enemy fighters to attack the ships as the unloaded their cargo, which included about 4,000 troops. The 43rd Bomb Group sent its B-17's out on small missions all day. Available records indicate that 63rd Squadron's "Lulu Belle" arrived over Lae at 4:45 and at 06:00 bombed a "cluster of lights: Four B-17s from the 64th Squadron attacked the convoy at 09:30 claming one near miss. They reported that heavy, accurate AA fire began five miles out from the target.
At 13:00 Captain William Thompson in the 63rd Squadron's Panama Hattie took off from Jackson Aerodrome with Lt. Ray Dau from the 65th Squadron as his wingman. Ray Dau and his crew were flying 41-9234 and it was their 13th mission. A third B-17 was forced to turn back soon after takeoff, but Thompson and Dau went on. The two B-17's reached Lae at midday fighting their way through a swarm of Japanese fighters. On the bomb run, the B-17 was hit by AA fire which shattered the nose.
The B-17 was being rocked by fire from guns on the ships, shore and was hit at least three times. Fight Sergeant Lloyd DuMond was wounded and the top turret was put out of action, both port engines were crippled and the controls were damaged. The tail turret gunner, Sgt. Henry Bowen was badly wounded by shrapnel. Still the ordeal of 41-9234 and its crew was not over; there was a 30 minute running battle with the Japanese fighters during which Dau's gunners claimed three Zeros destroyed.
With only two good engines, Dau and his copilot Lt. Donald Hoggan could neither climb nor turn. Dau recalled, "We were headed up a small valley and couldn't get over the mountains. I knew it was just a matter of time, so I began looking for a soft place to set her down. We glided in on the side of a mountain at about 110 miles an hour, and as luck would have it, there were no trees - nothing but nice soft grass - so we slid along into a crash landing".
The crash had been observed by the Australians at Wau and Cpl Hohn Smith led a small rescue party to the crash site. The wounded airmen were carried to Wau in litters, reaching there about dawn on January 9th. And B-17E 41-9234, still rests on the side of that hill that pilot Ray Dau put it down on, that fateful day back in January 1943.
Acknowledgments:
Bud Cole, Lloyd DuMond, Ray Dau, Janice Olson, Bruce Hoy and Les McAulay
Pilot 1st Lt. Ray S. Dau (0-424250) Arlington, VA
Co-Pilot 2nd Lt. Donald W. Hoggan (0-661930) Puente, CA
Bombardier 2nd Lt Albert V 'Bud' Cole
Navigator 2nd Lt. Peter Hudec (0-728213) New York, NY
Radio Sgt Robert Albright (wounded, later died)
Gunner Sgt Francis E. Caldwell (36172510) Goss Pointe, MI
Engineer SSgt Lloyd T. Dumond (17014140) Dewitt, AR
Gunner Sgt Henry J. Blasco (31043494) New Britain, CT
Tail Gunner Sgt. Henry Bowen (wounded, later died)
Force Landed January 8, 1943
Aircraft History
This B-17E was one of 16 B-17Es originally destined for RAF Coastal Command but taken back by the USAAF - 45 B-17Es were actually delivered to Britain. It had already been modified at Cheyenne for RAF service and marked with serial FL461 when it was reassigned to the 5th Air Force for service in New Guinea.
Mission History
On January 8, 1943, this B-17 took off from 7-Mile Aerodrome in Port Moresby, on its 13th mission. It was one of seven planes sent to bomb a convoy off the port at Lae. Japanese fighters perused it and a second aircraft off the target. Damaged by flak, the plane limped back with two engines out of action and the nose damaged. It force landed on a hillside near the head of Black Cat Pass, outside Wau.
Rescue of the Crew
Papuan scouts and Australian Commando, R.A. Dunne were the first to reach the crash site. Australian troops assisted the crew by carrying them in litters down to Wau Airfield, where they were flown back in RAAF Hudsons to Port Moresby.
Post War Speculation
After the war, this wreck puzzled many as weathering effects wore away the USAAF markings to reveal the original RAF roundels. Some incorrectly speculated the wreck was a RAF plane on a secret mission. Nicknames for the wreck evolved, including "Gray Ghost" to describe it.
Wreckage Today
This wreck remains one of the most impressive and easily accessible aircraft wrecks in Papua New Guinea.
References
This wreck is featured on the Pacific Ghosts CD-ROM with photos, video and history of this aircraft. Air Enthusiast (Issues 100 and 101) has a two part article by Robert Stitt that details the complete history of this bomber. Thanks to Robert Stitt for additional historical information
Regards
John P[/img]
B-17 At Black Cat Pass
by Steve Birdsall
For years this wreck was shrouded in mystery. It should have been easily identified by the numbers painted on the tail, 41-9234, a B-17E delivered by Boeing in Seattle on May 26th 1942. But this Fortress displayed RAF markings on the fuselage and wings, and British serial number FL461 although there are no records of any British or Australian units ever flying B-17's in the Southwest Pacific.
Fifty three years ago the B-17 at Black Cat Pass had been just one of 32 brand new Flying Fortresses delivered to Cheyenne Wyoming, USA, bound for Britain as part of the Lend-Lease Agreement. Boeing applied basic RAF markings but also displayed their original USAAF radio call numbers on their tails. These would be painted over after the aircraft arrived in England. However, during the first week of August 1942, four of these B-17s 41-9196, 41-9234, 41-9235 and 41-9244 were ordered to Hamilton Field in CA where they were flown to Hawaii and down to Australia to join the 19th Bomb Group.
Within 3 months, 2 of the 4 were lost. 41-9196 lost with Lt. Earl Hagerman on October 5, 1942 during a morning raid on Vunakanau Airstrip at Rabaul. 41-9235 ditched off Cooktown on October 29, 1942. When the 19th Bomb Group went home in late 1942, 41-9234 and 41-9244 were passed on to the 43rd Bomb Group, based at Seven Mile Strip near Port Moresby.
Although the Japanese had suffered major setbacks in New Guinea, they appeared determined to hold Lae and Salamaua at all costs. Aliied aircraft continually patrolled the sea lanes from Rabaul to the Huon Gulf and on January 6th a convoy, reported as "two light cruisers, four destroyers and four medium transports" was sighted heading for Lae. The convoy was battered by Allied aircraft over the next two days, but it reached Lae on January 8th.
And so began a desperate day as Allied airmen battled though foul weather and aggressive enemy fighters to attack the ships as the unloaded their cargo, which included about 4,000 troops. The 43rd Bomb Group sent its B-17's out on small missions all day. Available records indicate that 63rd Squadron's "Lulu Belle" arrived over Lae at 4:45 and at 06:00 bombed a "cluster of lights: Four B-17s from the 64th Squadron attacked the convoy at 09:30 claming one near miss. They reported that heavy, accurate AA fire began five miles out from the target.
At 13:00 Captain William Thompson in the 63rd Squadron's Panama Hattie took off from Jackson Aerodrome with Lt. Ray Dau from the 65th Squadron as his wingman. Ray Dau and his crew were flying 41-9234 and it was their 13th mission. A third B-17 was forced to turn back soon after takeoff, but Thompson and Dau went on. The two B-17's reached Lae at midday fighting their way through a swarm of Japanese fighters. On the bomb run, the B-17 was hit by AA fire which shattered the nose.
The B-17 was being rocked by fire from guns on the ships, shore and was hit at least three times. Fight Sergeant Lloyd DuMond was wounded and the top turret was put out of action, both port engines were crippled and the controls were damaged. The tail turret gunner, Sgt. Henry Bowen was badly wounded by shrapnel. Still the ordeal of 41-9234 and its crew was not over; there was a 30 minute running battle with the Japanese fighters during which Dau's gunners claimed three Zeros destroyed.
With only two good engines, Dau and his copilot Lt. Donald Hoggan could neither climb nor turn. Dau recalled, "We were headed up a small valley and couldn't get over the mountains. I knew it was just a matter of time, so I began looking for a soft place to set her down. We glided in on the side of a mountain at about 110 miles an hour, and as luck would have it, there were no trees - nothing but nice soft grass - so we slid along into a crash landing".
The crash had been observed by the Australians at Wau and Cpl Hohn Smith led a small rescue party to the crash site. The wounded airmen were carried to Wau in litters, reaching there about dawn on January 9th. And B-17E 41-9234, still rests on the side of that hill that pilot Ray Dau put it down on, that fateful day back in January 1943.
Acknowledgments:
Bud Cole, Lloyd DuMond, Ray Dau, Janice Olson, Bruce Hoy and Les McAulay
Pilot 1st Lt. Ray S. Dau (0-424250) Arlington, VA
Co-Pilot 2nd Lt. Donald W. Hoggan (0-661930) Puente, CA
Bombardier 2nd Lt Albert V 'Bud' Cole
Navigator 2nd Lt. Peter Hudec (0-728213) New York, NY
Radio Sgt Robert Albright (wounded, later died)
Gunner Sgt Francis E. Caldwell (36172510) Goss Pointe, MI
Engineer SSgt Lloyd T. Dumond (17014140) Dewitt, AR
Gunner Sgt Henry J. Blasco (31043494) New Britain, CT
Tail Gunner Sgt. Henry Bowen (wounded, later died)
Force Landed January 8, 1943
Aircraft History
This B-17E was one of 16 B-17Es originally destined for RAF Coastal Command but taken back by the USAAF - 45 B-17Es were actually delivered to Britain. It had already been modified at Cheyenne for RAF service and marked with serial FL461 when it was reassigned to the 5th Air Force for service in New Guinea.
Mission History
On January 8, 1943, this B-17 took off from 7-Mile Aerodrome in Port Moresby, on its 13th mission. It was one of seven planes sent to bomb a convoy off the port at Lae. Japanese fighters perused it and a second aircraft off the target. Damaged by flak, the plane limped back with two engines out of action and the nose damaged. It force landed on a hillside near the head of Black Cat Pass, outside Wau.
Rescue of the Crew
Papuan scouts and Australian Commando, R.A. Dunne were the first to reach the crash site. Australian troops assisted the crew by carrying them in litters down to Wau Airfield, where they were flown back in RAAF Hudsons to Port Moresby.
Post War Speculation
After the war, this wreck puzzled many as weathering effects wore away the USAAF markings to reveal the original RAF roundels. Some incorrectly speculated the wreck was a RAF plane on a secret mission. Nicknames for the wreck evolved, including "Gray Ghost" to describe it.
Wreckage Today
This wreck remains one of the most impressive and easily accessible aircraft wrecks in Papua New Guinea.
References
This wreck is featured on the Pacific Ghosts CD-ROM with photos, video and history of this aircraft. Air Enthusiast (Issues 100 and 101) has a two part article by Robert Stitt that details the complete history of this bomber. Thanks to Robert Stitt for additional historical information
Regards
John P[/img]
Swamp Ghost
Tue May 16, 2006 12:46 am
I recon when the locals find it will be scrap overnight.Even the cops won't go in there when it's dark.
Tue May 16, 2006 2:03 am
I would assume the locals have know where it is for 60 years! Not exactly 'hidden' is it 
Dave
Dave
Post Message
Tue May 16, 2006 5:47 am
I agree with JP
Black Cat is a better 'historical' bird to receive the attention of a recovery team. Lets face it, by the time the team breaks up either swamp ghost or black cat into sections suitable for helicopter lifting, then its much the muchness. Go Black Cat Go!
cya
Digger
Black Cat is a better 'historical' bird to receive the attention of a recovery team. Lets face it, by the time the team breaks up either swamp ghost or black cat into sections suitable for helicopter lifting, then its much the muchness. Go Black Cat Go!
cya
Digger
Tue May 16, 2006 9:48 am
Col. Rohr wrote:Here is a clue folks the folks involveed have a rather long history of doing recoverys from PNG.
You wouldn't be referring to Mr. "T" would you? and not the one who wears alot of gold.
I did noticed that Justin Taylan has visited the website recently and hasn't weighed in on this conversation. I would really like to hear if he happens to know anything.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Tue May 16, 2006 2:12 pm
There was a program on TV a few months ago, either on The History Channel or The Discovary Channel, I don't remember which.
Anyway, some guy was in PNG looking for his uncle's crashed B-25, and in one sequence they were flying around in a helicopter when they spotted an aircraft on the ground. They landed nearby and went over to look at the aircraft, which was a B-17E (it had a framed nose piece). It looked to be in halfway decent shape, and was sitting in a field of tall grass on top, not the side, of a mountain.
Anybody know which B-17 this one is?
Anyway, some guy was in PNG looking for his uncle's crashed B-25, and in one sequence they were flying around in a helicopter when they spotted an aircraft on the ground. They landed nearby and went over to look at the aircraft, which was a B-17E (it had a framed nose piece). It looked to be in halfway decent shape, and was sitting in a field of tall grass on top, not the side, of a mountain.
Anybody know which B-17 this one is?
Last edited by DIK SHEPHERD on Tue May 16, 2006 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tue May 16, 2006 2:48 pm
DIK SHEPHERD wrote:There was a program on TV a few months ago, either on The History Channel or The Discovary Channel, I don't remember which.
Anyway, some guy was in PNG loking for his uncle's crashed B-25 and in one sequence they're flying around in a helicopter when they spot an aircraft. They land and go to look the aircraft, which is a B-17E. It looked to be in halfway decent shape, and was sitting in a field of tall grass on top of a mountain.
Anybody know which B-17 this one is?
was it broken and bent at a 45 degree angle right behind the wing? If so, its the black cat pass bird.
( and from the sound of things, I would bet that it is. )
Ahah!
Tue May 16, 2006 8:15 pm
So that's why I've been getting calls asking about my B17 parts. Good stuff...
Tue May 16, 2006 9:29 pm
To frankspeaks:
Nope, the airframe was in one piece.
Nope, the airframe was in one piece.
Tue May 16, 2006 9:37 pm
It was Swamp ghost then
We also often forget the submerged "Black jack" of documentary fame - perhaps this is a candidate for recovery and static restoration and there is another in waters off queensland - a sister ship to the one in the black cat pass.
Sea water wrecks are probably not worth the effort but you never know .....
Regards
John p
We also often forget the submerged "Black jack" of documentary fame - perhaps this is a candidate for recovery and static restoration and there is another in waters off queensland - a sister ship to the one in the black cat pass.
Sea water wrecks are probably not worth the effort but you never know .....
Regards
John p
Tue May 16, 2006 9:41 pm
Swamp Ghost isn't sitting on a mountain.