John T., Collings P-51B??

[Triplane102]

Hey John T., Yesterday I looked at https:/floridawarbirds.com/ and noticed a P-51"B" being restored for the Collings next to the HellCat (i"m sure at American aero services) Which "B" is this ?

[C VEICH]

Would this not be the two seater (Betty Jane) that they took off of the tour when they added the TF-51D?

[GRNDP51]

Same aircraft being totally redone. New identity as "The Stars Look Down". I always thought Betty Jane was a TP-51C? "Stars" was a P-51B modified to be a TP-51B..?

[JohnTerrell]

As mentioned, it is the same airframe that had been known as "Betty Jane".

A P-51B and a P-51C are absolutely identical - the only difference is place of manufacture. During WWII, in the ETO, there were about 10 P-51B's/C's that were modified in the field with the addition of a rear seat and canopy - highly unlikely they were ever referred to as a "TP-51B" or "TP-51C" - no dual controls, and with far less precision in fit and finish than the Collings airplane, which has custom-built and crafted rear canopy, cockpit, etc. The Collings aircraft was newly-built by Pacific Fighters, completed in 2004. It has the data plate identity from a wartime-wrecked P-51C, in which the remains were recovered in England. The "Betty Jane" markings it had previously were of a P-51B, as were the 4th FG markings it had before that. ("Boise Bee", or "Bee", is another restored P-51C painted in the markings worn by a P-51B - but again, there is no physical difference between the two other than the data plate.)

[Triplane102]

So Sorry for the late reply, But Many Thanks for the info. I like P-51B/Cs in O.D, myself !

[GRNDP51]

As mentioned, it is the same airframe that had been known as "Betty Jane".

A P-51B and a P-51C are absolutely identical - the only difference is place of manufacture. During WWII, in the ETO, there were about 10 P-51B's/C's that were modified in the field with the addition of a rear seat and canopy - highly unlikely they were ever referred to as a "TP-51B" or "TP-51C" - no dual controls, and with far less precision in fit and finish than the Collings airplane, which has custom-built and crafted rear canopy, cockpit, etc. The Collings aircraft was newly-built by Pacific Fighters, completed in 2004. It has the data plate identity from a wartime-wrecked P-51C, in which the remains were recovered in England. The "Betty Jane" markings it had previously were of a P-51B, as were the 4th FG markings it had before that. ("Boise Bee", or "Bee", is another restored P-51C painted in the markings worn by a P-51B - but again, there is no physical difference between the two other than the data plate.)

Got it, like the D & K (besides prop, which some K's got Hamilton's anyway). I always just associate the B with the malcolm hood and C's to have the sharp razorback canopy. So there were B model's built without the malcolm hood? To me that's similar to asking if there were K's built without the AeroProducts prop.

[Ryan Harris]

The Malcolm hood was a field mod only and could be fit to any B or C.

[GRNDP51]

The Malcolm hood was a field mod only and could be fit to any B or C.

Ahh ok, always thought the B came from the factory with malcolm hood. So why is it more common that B's are represented with the malcolm hood? There aren't any C's airworthy currently with the bubble.

[Ryan Harris]

Strictly owners preference based on the paint schemes chosen to represent. For example, the ID that Roush’s P-51B is tied to, originally had the framed canopy during the war. The 3 B identities that have been restored to fly, just happen to have Malcolm hoods by coincidence, not by requirement.

There is zero factory difference between the B & C other than location built. If you want to make a claim that the C was different from the factory, you could say that the final ones built, rolled off the line with the dorsal fin already installed.

[JohnTerrell]

Got it, like the D & K (besides prop, which some K's got Hamilton's anyway). I always just associate the B with the malcolm hood and C's to have the sharp razorback canopy. So there were B model's built without the malcolm hood? To me that's similar to asking if there were K's built without the AeroProducts prop.

Well that's where I think people tend to get confused the most.

P-51B's and P-51C's were absolutely identical (except for the data plates), where they were designated differently based on place of manufacture. However, that was not the case with the P-51D. P-51D's were manufactured at both Inglewood and Dallas - in the case of the D's, they were only separated by the 'NA' for Inglewood or 'NT' for Dallas in their full designation strings (such as P-51D-5-NA and P-51D-5-NT). P-51K's, however, were only manufactured at Dallas. K-model production was injected within D-model production at Dallas, with K airframes being identical to the D's, but with Aeroproducts propellers instead of Hamilton Standard propellers. That was due to the fact that NAA was producing more Mustangs than Hamilton Standard could provide propellers (when in-service long enough, K's tended to eventually have Hamilton Standard props installed in-place of the more troublesome Aeroproducts units - as also happened to the restored P-51K "Fragile But Agile", several years back).

At Dallas, D/K production started with 200 P-51D's, followed by four production blocks of 1,500 P-51K's, followed by three production blocks of 1,400 P-51D's.

Speaking to the point of Malcolm hood canopies, they were never installed on any Mustangs from the factory, and they were only provided to units operating in the ETO (the RAF and the USAAF 8th and 9th Air Forces, and that's all). As mentioned above, the only significant difference between P-51B and P-51C production occurred with the very last four hundred P-51C's produced, which had dorsal fin fillets installed from the factory (where as kits were provided for all of the rest already in operation). By the time those last four hundred P-51C's were being produced, the Inglewood factory had already switched over to D model production.