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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:37 pm 
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Some more news from PNG newspapers today...

POST COURIER:
http://www.postcourier.com.pg/20060525/news02.htm

Quote:
War plane guns seized

TWO machine guns supposed to be shipped out of the country with the controversial American WWII B-17E bomber dubbed “Swamp Ghost” did not have export licences.
Customs officers say the two machine guns were built into the plane but they had to have separate export permits.
Customs officers dismantled the guns and removed them from the plane and put them away safely.
The warplane has an export permit following an agreement signed between the National Museum Board of Trustees and American military firm Military Aircraft Restoration Corporation which allowed MARC to salvage the plane and restore it in the United States of America.
However, the plane will not be removed pending the outcome of the Public Accounts Committee inquiry on July 1.
The PAC is a parliamentary committee that protects and investigates the use of public monies and state properties.
Acting Attorney-General Fred Tomo said they were acting on a directive from the PAC to obtain a National Court injunction restraining the exportation of the warplane.
Mr Tomo said his lawyers were getting information to establish how the agreement to allow the salvage and restoration of the plane was signed in the first place.
PAC Chairman John Hickey said the museum management had told him that $US100,000 (K320,000) was given as goodwill money to the state and to the Oro Provincial Government and the landowners.
Mr Hickey said he had given the museum board of trustees and its management 24 hours to declare the plane a national heritage item.
He said if investigations show that the plane had to be retained, part of the K320,000 should be used to have the plane transported back Northern Province.


More from POST COURIER:
http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/editorial1.htm

Quote:
The Swamp Ghost saga
BY all means let Papua New Guinea make sensible diplomatic arrangements to retain the grounded World War Two bomber, dubbed the Swamp Ghost.
While the issue is scarcely in the same category as the Public Accounts Committee investigations, the numerous leadership tribunal hearings currently underway, or PNG’s battle against rape, sorcery and murder, a case can be made out for the downed bomber’s retention in this country.
At the same time, we should avoid knee-jerk reactions and acknowledge a few facts.
The aircraft presumably remains the property of the United States Air Force.
We imagine that it would have great historical significance to those Americans who fought in WWII in our country, and to their descendants.
We would do well to recognise why the Americans were fighting in our country at the time, and to calmly assess the contribution their involvement and that of the Australians made to the preservation of our freedom and the development of the independent state of Papua New Guinea.
Had those efforts failed, landowners in the area where the Swamp Ghost was shot down might not today own any land at all.
The Boeing B-17 bomber was downed in 1942, while returning from a raid on Japanese-held Rabaul.
That’s 64 years ago.
It would seem that during that long period, only the Americans have expressed any interest in the stranded plane.
According to a local historian, three attempts have been made by American groups to salvage the aircraft and return it to the United States.
To the best of our knowledge, no attempts have been made by any Papua New Guinean government or by the local landowners, to take advantage of the bomber, to preserve it, or in any way to create a tourist attraction from the plane’s presence.
The clear message PNG has sent to the outside world has been one of suspicion over attempts to salvage and preserve the plane, while making no effort to do so itself.
Let’s be honest.
This country’s reputation for preserving contemporary history, including WWII relics, has been almost entirely negative.
Almost all of the recognised connections with WWII that still remain in our country have been ignored, vandalised or simply forgotten.
Nor is our record with those remaining vestiges of our own history any better.
Only a tiny handful of our people displayed even the slightest interest in saving the birthplace of our independence, the House of Assembly.
It is almost inconceivable that given the chance to preserve that building for posterity, we allowed it to house squatters who ultimately destroyed any possibility of restoration.
Future generations will be scathing in their assessment of our apathy over that issue.
PNG is littered with battle sites, remarkable wartime and historical cemeteries, and a host of other relics rotting away in our harsh climate. Very few indeed have been carefully maintained and are available for tourist inspection.
There are dozens of fascinating wrecks in many of our harbours; there has been no attempts made to salvage any of these as aspects of our national history. In general, they have become havens for divers and fish, or have been plundered for anything of value that remained.
The Fairfax Harbour wreck of the Burns Philp passenger ship, the MV Macdhui, a far more important war relic than the Swamp Ghost, has been allowed to rust away to near invisibility.
The sea grave of many Port Moresby residents trapped when the ship was strafed on June 17 and 18, 1942, by Japanese bombers, the Macdhui should have been preserved as a maritime memorial park, a fitting tribute to the many innocent civilians who were slaughtered on board.
Our government should step back from the outburst of passionate nationalism that has erupted over the Swamp Ghost.
If it is thought to be a matter of national importance to keep this plane in PNG, then we should pursue the matter through appropriate diplomatic channels.
But at the same time, we should look back with candour at our own poor record of preserving or capitalising upon the huge range of wartime and
other historical relics that have waited in vain for funding, for the people’s interest, and for positive action to ensure their survival.


THE NATIONAL:
http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/nation3.htm

Quote:
Minister wants report for NEC

By JULIA DAIA BORE
THE National Museum and Art Gallery had been directed to put together a submission for Culture and Tourism Minister David Basua to take to cabinet on all matters relating to the World War II Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress bomber.
The bomber, nicknamed the Swamp Ghost, was returning from an air raid mission in East New Britain when it crash landed on the Agaiembo Lake in 1942. It was recently retrieved from the lake and shipped to Lae where it was in the process of being dismantled and packed into containers for shipment to the US.
However, newspaper reports on these activities resulted in various government agencies intervening, including permanent parliamentary Public Accounts Committee chairman John Hickey and acting Prime Minister Sir Moi Avei.
The Swamp Ghost is now sitting idle at the main wharf in Lae, Morobe province.
Government authorities are also questioning the procedures used by the National Museum and Art Gallery board in permitting a group of Americans to retrieve and dismantle the Swamp Ghost for shipment overseas.
Internal Revenue Commission (IRC) chief David Sode, when contacted yesterday, said he had not received any export documentation from the Americans trying to ship the remains of the Boeing B-17 bomber.
“A lot will depend on the legal status of export authorisation from the National Museum and Art Gallery,” Mr Sode said, when asked if the IRC would block the shipment of the relic to the US.
Sir Moi had called on all relevant authorities do all in their powers to prevent the aircraft from leaving the shores of PNG while cabinet reviews the museum board’s decision.
Meanwhile, the chairman of the National Museum and Art Gallery board Arthur Jawodimbari is away overseas.
He is understood to be on a two-week prayer retreat in North Queensland, Australia.
Museum executives could not locate him yesterday to sign important documents explaining their position on the matter.
Acting director Simon Poraituk told The National yesterday that the chairman was out of the country and could not be reached to comment on the Swamp Ghost.
Deputy board chairman Andrew Kongri also refused to comment yesterday, preferring to wait until the full board of 13 members meets to discuss the issues at hand.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:31 pm 
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Plenty of sense in that second passage..lets get whoever wrote that in charge.! Hopefully someone is guarding the aircraft as it sits, no doubt the vandals will start coming out of the woodwork :roll:

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:40 pm 
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Daniel Leahy wrote:
Let’s be honest.
This country’s reputation for preserving contemporary history, including WWII relics, has been almost entirely negative.
Almost all of the recognised connections with WWII that still remain in our country have been ignored, vandalised or simply forgotten.
Nor is our record with those remaining vestiges of our own history any better.


Ahh a beacon of hope in the vast sea of darkness.

I sure hope a lot of people read the 2nd article.

Shay
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:37 pm 
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Wouldn't those undertaking this recovery have all appropriate documents already, current and historical? I am sure they already have lawyers and so on in place so let them get on with it.

Dave


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:10 am 
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Dear Mr Rob Rohr.

Did anyone ask for your help? David Tallichet? Anyone else?

No.

Do you represent David Tallichet better than his currently appointed agents and himself? Do you represent anyone else?

No and no.

Did David get you involved in the operation earlier?

No.

May I politely suggest that the best thing we can all do is to shut up and let the guys on the spot deal with what is a fluid and tricky situation. The don't need help, they just need a lot less of a media and enthusiast spotlight on the situation. It's a classic one false move and the whole thing goes whahoonie shaped, and you are not Tom Cruise. (You are taller for as start.)

Go and do something else, and that's the biggest favour you can do them.

There will be no points for a Sixth Cavalry arrival here.

You are indeed entitled to do any number of things. That doesn't mean they are helpful or useful. Some people suggesting here that you cool it and don't act is not the sign of a dictatorship in the USA; the sign of such a thing is that you'd have 'been shot trying to escape' by now if it were a dictatorship. That's a badge of honor if you wish.

You are welcome to argue or abuse; I'm not interested, and I've already seen what you've got to say.

Just ask yourself: "Would David thank me for getting involved at this late stage?"

Regards,

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:50 am 
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I wonder if the plane would have been safely on its way to shelter by now had that opportunistic "heads up" not been phoned in to the otherwise historically oblivious PNG bureaucrats? How ironic would it be to have the very subject of that whistleblower's knee-jerk crusade siezed indefinitely at a public dock where, like other recoveries, it may easily end up vandalized and picked apart in short order?

I can only hope that the individual who burned up the phones to warn the PNG officials of the salvage was motivated by more than the basic desire to engage in one-upmanship against the preservationists. Electing to play tug-of-war at the 11th hour with a relic this fragile is a fool move by any means, and it always results in more damage than good.

The planes new owner spent decades worth of patience, energy, and capital to acquire legal ownership of this relic through proper channels so that it could be effectively preserved. One idiot with a personal agenda may well have set a chain of events in motion that will see this precious time capsule all but destroyed in the ensuing legal melee. I hope the PNG government's sudden awakening toward the "preservation of national heritage" turns out to be just that, and not just an opportunity to flex their political muscle to no appreciable end. To me, it smacks more of the gardner who enjoys hunting the rabbit far more than he does tending to the dying crop.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:19 am 
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bluethunder28 wrote:
I wonder how much of the plane will be left in the next 30 years IF the Swamp Ghost doesn't come home. I remember seeing pictures of her when she was first re-discovered and a lot has disappeared including the swamp!

Time to bring her home.


If it was going to stay there, yes, more parts would definitely disappear. But don't blame the locals. I, for example have seen a few years ago half the instrument panel of "Swamp Ghost", not in the house of a Papuan, but in the collection of a well know westerner aircraft owner and collector.

Another example : look at the Ebay link below

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/A6M-Zero-tail-Ho ... dZViewItem

So yes, leaving any wreck in situ is definitely not a good idea, but we are surely as responsible as the local for their gradual deterioration.

Laurent


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:10 am 
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It's a good lesson in salvage. No permission , No Paper Work and No Press!!! You have just got to grab it and split! Because when they figure it out your looooooooooooooooong gone! I would grab the B-17 off the moutain and Split! _P.S. I would not even tell the help what were doing untill we were at the site! Now it's in a goverment yard and alot of money is involved and regardless of what the law says They will keep it they want to. Further when people starting writng and telling them how corrupt and stupid they are they it will really strenthing their resolve to show the rich Amerian Imperialist who's in charge.


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:23 am 
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Broken-Wrench wrote:
Quote:
I would grab the B-17 off the moutain and Split! _P.S. I would not even tell the help what were doing untill we were at the site!


Quote:
BEEP GOES THE METAL DETECTOR

"EXCUSE ME SIR, PLEASE STEP TO THE SIDE, IS THAT A B17 IN YOUR POCKET OR ARE YOU JUST HAPPY TO SEE ME?"


I dont think you can really expect to roll up into another country and do a "Midnight Motors" on a 75 foot long, 16 tonne wreck in the middle of no-where with no roads, no power and no Starlifter?

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Mark Pilkington

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:30 am 
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YEA, I DO :lol: It's is kind of like the Philidelpha Project! A plane disapears out of a swamp and reappears years latter in another country. It is easier to beg for forgiveness than ask permission! I belive this has happened to several Japanese wrecks


Last edited by Broken-Wrench on Fri May 26, 2006 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:12 am 
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I'm not sure where the story broke first but it appears it would have been better to have broken when the ship was in international waters. A lesson I think.

I don't think Grabbing and running is a great idea, tempting but not a long term solution.

Tim

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:53 am 
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Tim,

It would seem the arrival of Swamp Ghost and its dismantling in Lae would have generated significant local and media interest, as well as the local villagers either noticing the work on the aircraft in the swamp or the workforce travelling in and out, all of this would have been sufficient to bring it to the notice of the general public and in particular Government departments.

The project team was apparantly working with valid approval, there would not seem to be any need to hide, let alone any ability to do so.

From the newspaper articles it seems that direct appeals to the acting Prime Minister by the local villagers is the primary cause for the investigation into the export permit apparantly issued by the National Museum? thats their right to do so.

The story therefore broke as the project progressed?

I dont think it would have been possible for Swamp Ghost to slip out un-noticed unless it was cut up into little pieces, and that would have defeated the purpose of its recovery??

Encouraging restorers to sneak around in the dark without paperwork and permission and doing a "smash and grab" doesnt give you much moral high ground to argue from?

Australia had a ME-109 attempted to be exported as a silver painted "Mustang", I am sure the people concerned knew it wasnt a P51!, and shouldnt been upset to find so did Australian Customs! that aircraft was forfeited along with a CAC Mustang accompanying it.

Lets encourage abiding with the local laws of countries and not let this thread allow itself to be used to give warbird recoverers a bad name, particularly while this PNG investigation is on.

Lets keep criticism of the PNG and their laws and processes out of this debate until the "jury comes in", at this stage they have only stalled the export while they undertake an investigation, thats their right to do so.

Hopefully any investigation will be reported publically and not leave the status of the export, and the future of the aircraft uncertain?

It appears the project team has done everything by the book, and the issue then is an internal PNG Government problem to resolve the powers and processes of the National Museum? again thats their right to do so.

fingers crossed for a fair and logical outcome for Swamp Ghost, and hopefully an ongoing fair process to protect and recover other relics.


regards

Mark Pilkington

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:17 am 
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Why doesn't the PNG Governement work out some kind of auction deal where they make available for recovery a number of airframes every year ? That way there are no secret (dark) corners and everyone gets a chance to go after a wreck. The money can be spent on tourism and preservation. A far better deal than doing nothing and leaving the whole thing rot and corrode.
Gr.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:56 am 
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They should have canned the engines take all the expensive hardware and had in nets, they could have disassembled it at the lap seams it had it staged for airlift with a S-58T onto a barge and all would have been gone in about 8 hrs and on it's way.


Last edited by Broken-Wrench on Fri May 26, 2006 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:19 am 
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dmx wrote:
Why doesn't the PNG Governement work out some kind of auction deal where they make available for recovery a number of airframes every year ?


Because they are considering these aircraft as relics of their World War 2 heritage.

The dilemma is that these aircraft are a important part of their past but they don't either have the motivation or the ability to properly take care of the aircraft. Ither by recoverying or restoring the aircraft or structures (enclosed buildings) could be built around the sites to display the aircraft in a closed enviroment as the were found.....away from the elements.

My brother is dealing with a situation similar to this. He noticed a particular 1967 Pontiac Lemans in front of a house, on his route to work. He stopped by to take a closer look. The car is in very poor condition, but is saveble. He rang on the door to talk to the owner and asked if he would consider selling it. The owner stated that the car had once belonged to his now deceased son, who passed 20 years ago and that he would not sell it ever. Now I can understand and respect the feelings associated to this car and in the case of Swamp Ghost. But there comes a point when you have to step back and take look at the situation and ask some hard questions. Is letting these machines deteriorate into nothing, because you don't have the abilities to take care of them, fair to the memories of the people or heritage of your country? Is it better that these aircraft be saved and restored to last for the coming years even though the might leave the country? Or do we continue on our path of neglect and ensure that nothing remains by the time of the next mellinium? In the end the only people at a loss are the future generations.

Shay
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