Collings Foundation B-17G 909 Has Crashed :-( 10/2/2019

[flypa38]

Heartbroken over this.......dont even know what to say.

[OD/NG]

Here is an excellent no-nonsense, non-speculative summary of all the information we know so far regarding this tragedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpv-xxYQ8-o

I've met Juan, the person who produces this, in real life. He is an excellent source for aviation news and one of the few on youtube that I give complete credibility and veracity to. His youtube channel is one of the best and most informative regarding current events in Aviation. He is a military Veteran as well as a current 777 Capt for a major airline. You can take everything he says to the bank.

I recommend this video, especially for non-aviation people, to help understand this incident.

[RandolphB]

Here is an excellent no-nonsense, non-speculative summary of all the information we know so far regarding this tragedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpv-xxYQ8-o

I've met Juan, the person who produces this, in real life. He is an excellent source for aviation news and one of the few on youtube that I give complete credibility and veracity to. His youtube channel is one of the best and most informative regarding current events in Aviation. He is a military Veteran as well as a current 777 Capt for a major airline. You can take everything he says to the bank.

I recommend this video, especially for non-aviation people, to help understand this incident.

I'm going to disagree with you on this and make a sort of different point to the overall. Times have changed, and with internet access EVERYBODY can easily see public comments. Years ago, nobody had a clue about places like WIX and usually only folks deeply involved in a subject took part in the discussions. Little to no harm came from that, but no longer.

The problem now is lawyers and lawsuits. They search the internet for statements matching their perspective to win their clients cases. Early in this thread people simply repeated most current reported facts such as number of those killed, an engine seen off by an informed witness and the like. A certain amount of speculating used to be OK, but now one has to be legally perfect in expressing themselves for the greater good of the community. Yesterday, somebody who volunteers with the CF called the local TV station and gave an interview. During it he said a LOT of things that a lawyer will devour in lawsuits for liability. There was no overall explanation of the dynamics of Warbird flights for the public and how it all works. Taken at face value I can see how the majority of people would immediately think it's a horrible idea to allow. I wouldn't doubt if this fellow's statements become key in litigation later to the detriment of the Warbird community.

I dislike the fellow's videos because he presents himself as an expert, without taking the time to consider how and what he says. Is there a script? No, he just starts and talks. In other on-line groups I take part in this same video is going wildly viral and it's frankly amazing how little the general public knows about aviation and moreso Warbirds. I've seen people outraged because the aircraft isn't in it's original paint scheme, others who freaked out at "such an old airplane is still allowed to fly!". All things that lawyers can and WILL use to the detriment of aviation. Better to have just shut up, smiled and nodded and not gone on record making statements at all. Even in our threads here folks need to take care of what and HOW they say things. The wolf is truely at the door for Warbirds in many ways already. My personal experience in lawsuits and later criminal offenses against myself has changed and tempered everything I say everywhere. You simply wouldn't believe what lawyers can and do get access to use and how they twist it to their advantage. A "jury of your peer" means every day people, not pilots, A & P's and aviation enthusiasts.

My long winded point being- watch how and what you say these days. Bland statements to update an unfolding situation are fairly safe, general statements as to difficulty in a situation are good...but once you cross the line to things like, "He should have" or" you're supposed to.." you're opening the door to interpretation that could damage or end many things in aviation.

It's a terrible shame what happened, and many folks here knew the people and organization involved. Knowledge helps prevent future incidents for sure- but these days it's best not to have these discussions in public......

[wendovertom]

Agreed - it's the "casting aspersions" on all the remaining B-17 operators that gets me. If he knew ANYTHING the B-17s in operation are all far better managed than your average private plane. I have often felt that the B-17s I have been on were super safe. Besides, in a commercial flight the mechanic is waving good bye to me from the ramp. On the B-17 the mechanic is sitting in the plane WITH me.

Tom P.

[WIXerGreg]

A couple of the passenger victim names were released this morning.

https://www.wfsb.com/news/some-victims- ... 67428.html

[p51]

"Blow out" number four? Listen here: https://www.wwlp.com/news/top-stories/a ... -crashing/
Did the CDR mean he had a fire on 4? I'm not speculating, just wondering. The CDR didn't declare an emergency, but if he just thought one engine went out, I wouldn't have expected him to do so.

[bipe215]

Agreed - it's the "casting aspersions" on all the remaining B-17 operators that gets me. If he knew ANYTHING the B-17s in operation are all far better managed than your average private plane. I have often felt that the B-17s I have been on were super safe. Besides, in a commercial flight the mechanic is waving good bye to me from the ramp. On the B-17 the mechanic is sitting in the plane WITH me.

Tom P.

I agree. When you think about it, the safety record of the "touring" heavy bombers is pretty darn good. I can't remember the last fatality in this country with a B-17. Would it be as far back as the fire fighting ships?

Steve

[p51]

Here's a shot I took of her from their B-24 on my very first warbird ride in the 90s, over the pine forests of North Florida:

One passenger was smart enough to wear Nomex and didn’t get to badly hurt, according to this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/us/conne ... index.html
When I flew on these, I usually wore my Nomex suit, one I had for exactly that purpose, with some patches for the various planes I’d flown on.

[Scott Rose]

Let's keep civil and keep politics out of this.
I will eliminate posts that are disrespectful or political

[RandolphB]

I am seeing a LOT of public backlash against not only rides, but even flying Warbirds. The public is very uneducated in their knowledge of aviation these days....

It's interesting that in the first press conference, the politician made a big show of saying he had "Demanded an NTSB investigation!"....when they were probably on the ground before he even knew about it all....

[chainfeed]

Agreed - it's the "casting aspersions" on all the remaining B-17 operators that gets me. If he knew ANYTHING the B-17s in operation are all far better managed than your average private plane. I have often felt that the B-17s I have been on were super safe. Besides, in a commercial flight the mechanic is waving good bye to me from the ramp. On the B-17 the mechanic is sitting in the plane WITH me.

Tom P.

I agree. When you think about it, the safety record of the "touring" heavy bombers is pretty darn good. I can't remember the last fatality in this country with a B-17. Would it be as far back as the fire fighting ships?

Steve

I poked around a bit and the last fatal B17 wreck I found was in the mid 1970's.

[Triplane102]

So Sad, Thoughts & Prayers go out to Victims & Families involved. ABC GMA this morning asked their aviation "Expert" " aren't these airplanes Old ?", expert says; "Old ? "They're Ancient!!" They should, instead, keep up with stories of the "BRAND NEW " Airliners that NOSE DIVE & Kill every one on board !
NBC Today show, states " Deadly B-17 Crash ". We know that they meant to say, that the crash was deadly, But 'com talking head, they Over-pay you enough to at least get it Right !
I WILL NEVER Forget seeing 9 O 9 at San Antonio Stinson Many times, C.F even let me go up to her for free , After I took in the stray dog ( "Crystal", we still have her !) that was running around the warbirds !

[Chris Brame]

I poked around a bit and the last fatal B17 wreck I found was in the mid 1970's.

July 12, 1973 - B-17G 44-85840/N620L. Lost in a firefighting run in Nevada, 2 fatal. This was the plane that had the one-wheel landing during the filming of Tora! Tora! Tora!.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/5344

[phil65]

The line to tour the inside of 909 was so long at Waterbury, Ct on September 7; that I decided to just walk around her instead...
They were supposed to have "Battle for the airfield" next weekend at Stow Massachusetts's. I wonder if that will get canceled...

Blue skies,
Phil

Last edited by phil65 on Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Warbirdnerd]

Video from the NTSB surveying the site-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO8HdzY ... e=youtu.be