Warbird Information Exchange

I haven't measured it, but from pictures, it looks like the Hoover Nozzle would fit just fine in an unmodified B-17, or DC-3 fuel tank filler neck. Not say that's what happened because I don't know!

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Best Regards;
Chuck Giese --- Volunteer helping to restore B-17G 44-85734 "Liberty Belle".

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Best Regards;
Chuck Giese --- Volunteer helping to restore B-17G 44-85734 "Liberty Belle".

Thank you chuck for you’re input. Even if somebody got that close to one of the planes with a jet a truck a Collings foundation member would have pumped the fuel themselves up on ladders etc. that’s what I’ve always seen. I’m sure the Hoover nozzle would have been noticed.

I’m just guessing here but if a b-17,( on run up,) if it had tainted fuel wouldn’t the rmps not reach where it should have?

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

Still highly unlikely as Mac apparently always personally fueled the airplane. They didn't let line guys fuel it.

I have very deliberately stayed out of this discussion since the incident happened. I heard on the day of that it may have been a fueling incident, but again have resisted commenting on it. In this case, however, I want to chime in...because as an active duty Naval Aviator, while having a civilian FBO refuel my aircraft, the same thing happened...albeit instead of Jet A they filled it with 100LL, so it was the opposite with the nozzle fitting. I bring this up for two reasons...one, they were fueling it while I was pre-flighting the aircraft, and even though I specifically told them what I needed, they made the mistake and I did not catch it until it was too late. IT IS VERY EASY to be distracted enough with everything going on and assume that even after you've held someone by the hand, a mistake can be made. And second, unless the tanks in the aircraft were virtually empty, you would not see any immediate effect in the engine performance. Most likely there was enough fuel to do the start-up, run-up, take-off AND a couple minutes of flying before the density difference of 100LL and Jet A would mix enough to have a noticeable impact.

This whole thing is terribly tragic, but as the victim of a fueling mistake myself, it hits close to home. I still second-guess myself for that incident 26 years after the fact as to whether I could have/should have caught it earlier. I'm not making myself out to be a super-pilot here (there are many who would be more than willing to make fun of my short-comings), but if it happened to me, it could happen to anyone.

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Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives, and I decline......

I’ve never seen anybody BUT Mac fueling the plane. I’ve also never seen just a line tech refueling any of the aircraft by themselves. Usually it’s the volunteer on the ladder or wing refueling and the fbo member on the ground.

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

Just to chime in, I have a very comprehensive set of pictures from the plane's visit to my area last (not this) summer. Yes, there is Mac on a ladder working on an engine -- looks mostly like taking a cloth to it, cleaning some internal bit at the front of the engine. Then I have pictures of the fuel truck arriving. Then the two guys getting out of the truck. Then there's Mac up on top of the wing, presumably plugging the fuel line in. Then the truck moves to the other wing, and then Mac is up on that wing. Never do I see anyone else but Mac up on that plane.

However, this all happened very early in the morning, probably around an hour or two before the plane loaded with passengers and took off. There were very few other people on the tarmac, anywhere, this early. This was at Aurora State Airport in Aurora, Oregon -- a very small airport south of the Portland metropolitan area. Perhaps the proverbial polar opposite of Bradley.

Hartford is top notch....

Phil

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A man's got to know his limitations.

I'm having a hard time with the Jet fuel theory. I would think an experienced accident investigator would be able to tell that just from the smell of the accident site.

I keep coming back to this guys observation :

https://www.kptv.com/video-eyewitness-r ... b0666.html

The radio transmission indicated a problem with #4 engine. There appears to be a feathered engine embedded in the wall of a building at the crash site. Many people think that is #4. (how they are so totally sure of that, I don't know)

If the eyewitness is correct and they shutdown and feathered #4, when Mac was turning final and pushing three throttles to the max, he may have only had power on #1 and #2. It would be extremely confusing coming out of that base turn to final, expecting power out of three engines and only getting two (on the left side). If the airspeed wasn't above Vmc for two engines out on one side (which is probably quite high), the airplane would continue rolling to the right, even with full control deflection. The only way to stop that would be to reduce power on #1 and #2, which may explain why it settled into the approach lights.

It pains me to think that someone as highly experienced as Mac could be led down that path but it all happened in less time than it took to write this post.

In B-17 lingo, what does "blow out" mean in reference to the # 4 engine(if I heard that recording right)?

Well then if Jet A was the contaminate, what is the possibility of the 100LL being contaminated before it went into 909. Highly unlikely...there would have been other complaints, but then again someone would have to be first?

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He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

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_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

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_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

Whenever these aircraft are getting ready for a flight, there are numerous people taking pics, I haven't seen one showing a JetA truck by the B17 yet.

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Trust me, I know, but I'm also close to some similar networks that are NOT saying that, at least that I've heard.

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.