Swamp Ghost has been sold and should be come to.........

[setter]

Jase

don't beat yourself up - life goes on and nobody died..........

they were great historical pics though - remember when the He111 and Ju88s came out of norway - same thing - no biggie I would think

(Snickers Thank god I have a batch downloader thingmumy - THEY ARE STILL NICE PICS) LOL

Regards
John P

[airnutz]

Yes, wise words Setter..

[DIK SHEPHERD]

So you guys down-under think this situation is just a bunch of Yanks riding into town to take whatever they want, do you?

Your statements . . .

"So when a group of Yanks ride into town the scene is set for a stoush and so it is............ And . . . "You cannot brush aside these people and assume anybody has the right to go in and help themselves - in other more 'civilised cultures “shots would have been fired. "

. . . deserve a response.

First of all, do you know or care about American history? I assume you don't.

Well our history tells us that if it hadn't been for the U.S. Navy, at the Battle of the Coral Sea, chances are the northern part of Australia and all of New Guinea would have been in the hands of the Japanese. Probably for a very long time. I don't recall any PNG Navy out there to help.

And unlike the Philippinos that formed their own guerrilla units, with and without America's help, I don't recall hearing too much about anti-Japanese units made up soley of New Guinea natives.

Sure, thousands, tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people from New Guinea died in the war, but just how many actually gave their lives for their country? Or, did they die simply because they were helping the Allies fight the Japanese?

Until World War Two came along, the only history New Guinea had was tribal history. And in many parts of that country that's still all they care about. So don't give me all this heritage this and heritage that crap, it is and always has been only about the money.

Question - Because I don't recall the full story of "Swamp Ghost", did any local natives assist the American aircrew once they had landed? If not, where's their heritage connection?

Dave Tallichet has been working on this project for more years than I can remember, and this aircraft is more a part of America's heritage then anyone's in New Guinea. This aircraft is one of the last vestiages of America's fight in the earliest part of the war and deserves to be brought back to the land of the people that made it. Not sitting in some village's backyard swamp where they may, or may not, make a few bucks off a very few tourists.

There's an old saying . . .

"You pay the piper before you can dance."

. . . and Dave Tallichet has paid, and paid. Now it's time to dance, and bring the aircraft home.

And as far as your mining anaology is concerned, I can guarantee you that the PNG government is getting paid handsomely for the mining rights. However, I can't garantee that anyone other than the government officials are getting any of the money. Chances are that no one else is.

And, if a PNG company was able to obtain any sort of mining rights to the Great Barrier Reef or Yellowstone Park, that would be because of our governments, and there's not a whole lot we could do about it.

So, feel sorry for the people of New Guinea all you want, in the real world they won't suffer any more than they already do, just because an old aircraft is recovered from a swamp and brought home.

[DaveM2]

Question - Because I don't recall the full story of "Swamp Ghost", did any local natives assist the American aircrew once they had landed? If not, where's their heritage connection?

.

Answer: 'Yes', as did Australian Coast watchers.

Dave

[setter]

Dik

Firstly read my last bit

There is nothing wrong with what has taken place with Swamp Ghost it was always going to be a hard ask and we just all need to but out and see what can be negotiated - big moves are being made behind the scenes I assure you and will not be assisted by well intentioned but less than optimally informed input from all of us here

As you can see i am all for the guys who rode into town and did it so i can't understand where this came from ? I just said they are in for a fight.

Well our history tells us that if it hadn't been for the U.S. Navy, at the Battle of the Coral Sea, chances are the northern part of Australia and all of New Guinea would have been in the hands of the Japanese. Probably for a very long time. I don't recall any PNG Navy out there to help.

Well The Aus govt and McArthur had already made plans to abandon the Northern half - the Japanese just gave up on it.

And unlike the Philippinos that formed their own guerrilla units, with and without America's help, I don't recall hearing too much about anti-Japanese units made up soley of New Guinea natives.

Well I don't want to get into a @#issing contest but you will find many instances where the "Fuzzy wuzzy Angels " as they were called saved the necks of allied troops - If need be PM me and I will send you references.

So, feel sorry for the people of New Guinea all you want, in the real world they won't suffer any more than they already do, just because an old aircraft is recovered from a swamp and brought home.

As for this and the rest of your post i think you miss the entire point which is i think the recovery is a great thing and i hope it suceeds but don't just write all the local concern off based upon western paradigms

At the end of the day I would love to see all the wrecks come out and be restored - perhaps it may happen

And yes I have a degree in History which includes American history units

Not everyone is your enemy work with me a bit here

Kind regards
John p

[DaveM2]

Ironic that it is Americans who are trying to stop the thing coming out.....just goes to show that since few of us here are directly involved with the recovery, there should be some caution about proportioning 'blame'.

Dave

[DIK SHEPHERD]

Hello there DaveM2:

I don't recall any Americans trying to keep the aircraft from coming out.

[DaveM2]

Dik

Read Jungle Bob's post....separate thread.

Dave

[airnutz]

I don't recall any Americans trying to keep the aircraft from coming out.

Hang out here a coupla years DIK, keep your ear to the rail..and you'll discover the durndest things....

[Mark_Pilkington]

Despite our debates here regarding the role of the US and others in WW2 and the relative heritage values and "rights" to Swamp Ghost to American's or PNG, remember that we are dealing with a soveriegn nation with its own political and legal system, and its their political and legal system that will determine the future for Swamp Ghost and the future for other recoveries.

I think the message John, and I and others have been making in the last few pages is that regardless of paperwork and moral "rights" the main issue to be mindful of is that these south pacific countries have problems with employment, education and other basic services, their political decisions are made mindful of public backlash and in some instances the risk of military coup or civil unrest.



The greatest risk facing the successful recovery project of Swamp Ghost at the moment would seem to be PNG public opinion, at all levels of their society, and the pressure it puts on their Government to fall one way or another on the future of Swamp Ghost.

Here is a letter to the editor from todays PNG Post-Courier.

Without inviting a rush of posts belittling the grammar, opinions or views it contains, this demonstrates the minefield of interests that the PNG government will need to placade.

Obviously we would hope no one could seriously expect to stick it back in the swamp, but these are simple views proposing simple "solutions" all coming from a population and country that has basic problems and simple needs.


http://www.postcourier.com.pg/20060526/frhome.htm

Swamp Ghost must not leave our shores

Your coverage on the Swamp Ghost to be shifted to and restored in America prompts me to write. Firstly, for the last 64 years, did the National Museum and Fred Hagen and Robert Greinert know of its existence? On what provisions of the National Museum Act is it said that the Swamp Ghost has to be removed from its resting place. This must be revoked as it has become part of the life and environment of the people of Karaisa. I support the Public Accounts Committee investigating the matter. The entire salvage operation must be abandoned and the property of the people of Karaisa returned to its original resting place. Does the Oro Provincial Government and the Tourism Promotion Authority know that the Swamp Ghost will be a multi-million dollar attraction in Australia or America when it leaves the shores of Papua New Guinea? Something fishy is going on which needs proper investigation by the PAC to see which National Museum Act gives the right for such an important historical property to leave the shores of PNG. Secondly, the people of Karaisa must push this matter to the highest level of court and government agencies to see that their Swamp Ghost gets back to Aigiambo Lake. Firstly, no foreigners should bypass Government and the people who own the land in PNG. That is for example, foreigners don’t dig for minerals and extract oil from PNG soil and this must be understood as Swamp Ghost is the property of Karaisa people. And there must be proposals and agreement of understanding on what they want to do with the Swamp Ghost for commercial purposes. Please PAC, stop this operation as the tourism attraction for Swamp Ghost will germinate income for the little people of Karaisa village. – Manuda’Apie Konedobu, NCD n PLEASE we want our war relics to be left alone and returned to its original home. We don't want any of these to be removed. We strongly oppose this action of removing this world war II relic out of our country. Why is the Museum board not saying anything when these Americans sought permission to pull the World War II B17E bomber out to be shipped to the US. We appeal to the Government, the IRC, National Museum and Art Gallery board of trustees and offices concerned to stop this Swamp Ghost from leaving PNG. – Kari Siwi LAE

As Setter points out, these are very young nations, their population still spreads from tribal/jungle existances to capital city dwellers, the concept of property rights, rule of law, and central government is only a recent western import into their societies.

The best thing "we" can all do is avoid getting into a pissing competition that try's to belittle PNG's historical links and rights to wartime heritage relating to the battles that occured there - Regardless of allied or japanese origins of the relics, and regardless of the local PNG "peoples" involvement in the battle itself or operating these relics, they are the custodians of the battlegrounds, and these are relics of the battles.

Letters to the editor arguing some of the opinions being posted in this thread would slam the door of PNG public opinion and "dump the Swamp Ghost back in the lake!"

We can only hope logical and fair review of the situation is undertaken by the PNG government and a good outcome for both Swamp Ghost and other viable wrecks is developed.


On a different vain here is some more details on the recovery project in the News reporting section

http://www.postcourier.com.pg/20060526/frhome.htm

K320,000 paid to ship the ‘Ghost’

About $US100,000 (K320,000) was given as goodwill money for the salvage and restoration of American warplane B-17E by the American Aircraft Restoration Association. And that money has been sitting in a bank since 2002. Staff of the National Museum and Art Gallery say Military Aircraft Restoration Corporation (MARC) of the United States had paid the full amount into an account named Escrow at the Port Moresby Westpac Bank branch in 2002 in the form of a wire transfer. An agreement was signed in 1999 between the president of MARC John Kenney and the former acting director of the museum Soroi Eoe to allow American Fred Hagen, of Acro Archaeology contracted by MARC, to lead the salvage and restoration of the warplane — nicknamed Swamp Ghost. Present acting director of the museum Simon Poraituk said the plane was worth only K12,000 and should be restored because it would disintegrate. He said the goodwill money was intended to be shared between the State (50 per cent), Oro Provincial Government (25 per cent) and 25 per cent to the Karaisa landowners, the owners of the Agiambo swamp where the world war II plane came down some 64 years ago. He said he “was not sure” who would have access to the money in the bank to have it distributed. Australian Robert Greinert and Mr Hagen, acting on the agreement, removed the plane from the swamp and was sitting in Lae ready to be shipped to the US. However, the Government intervened and put a stop to its export to review the decision made by the National Museum and Art Gallery Board to ship the aircraft to the US. The parliamentary committee responsible for protecting public monies and properties — the Public Accounts Committee — will conduct an inquiry on the Swamp Ghost on July 1. Former acting director Soroi Eoe confirmed the agreement but said the Post-Courier’s reports were shallow and there was no investigation made before the publication.

and for those who dont believe PNG takes its WW2 Battlefield heritage seriously this was just another news piece in the same paper.....

‘Kokoda Day’ proposed

AN Australian state politician has asked the Papua New Guinea Government to declare a day to honour the infamous Kokoda campaign of World War II. Charlie Lynn, a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly who has been associated with the Kokoda Track for many years, has written to Prime Minister Grand Chief Sir Michael Somare seeking support for the declaration of an official “Kokoda Day” in Papua New Guinea. “I do not propose this as a holiday but as an official day of commemoration to encourage schools, veterans, community organisations, business and government to reflect on the service and sacrifice of PNG and Australian servicemen and women and the carriers in the New Guinea campaigns during the Pacific War,” Mr Lynn says in a letter sent to Sir Michael. Mr Lynn proposes that November 3 be proclaimed as “Kokoda Day” because it is the day when the Australian flag was raised in Kokoda towards the end of the Kokoda campaign. The letter states: “The symbolism of the raising of the flag is important because it was the culmination of an extraordinary effort against all odds by American, Australian and PNG naval, army and air forces and civilian carriers and coast-watchers. “It represents a turning of the tide against an enemy that had been deemed to be invincible before that. “The aim of “Kokoda Day” is not to celebrate war or victory over the Japanese. “It is to commemorate the spirit of those who served and sacrificed so much for the peace we enjoy.” Mr Lyn says in his letter that he believes the proclamation of the day in PNG would encourage many Australian tourists to attend commemorative ceremonies at Kokoda and Bomana War Cemetery. This year, about 700 trekkers walked the Kokoda Trail to commemorate ANZAC Day. They also attended the dawn service at Bomana War Cemetery. Mr Lynn has asked Sir Michael to consider his proposal.

fingers still crossed


regards

Mark Pilkington

[bomberflight]

I just stumbled across this item

http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/nation3.htm

Of more significance is thier online poll of should Swamp Ghost be alloewd to leave for the United States ~ I've just voted maybe others might like to do the same ????????

[Mark_Pilkington]

Peter,

excellent spot of that and it certainly "clicked" with me.

The Article is worth a read too

Minister wants report for NEC

By JULIA DAIA BORE
THE National Museum and Art Gallery had been directed to put together a submission for Culture and Tourism Minister David Basua to take to cabinet on all matters relating to the World War II Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress bomber.
The bomber, nicknamed the Swamp Ghost, was returning from an air raid mission in East New Britain when it crash landed on the Agaiembo Lake in 1942. It was recently retrieved from the lake and shipped to Lae where it was in the process of being dismantled and packed into containers for shipment to the US.
However, newspaper reports on these activities resulted in various government agencies intervening, including permanent parliamentary Public Accounts Committee chairman John Hickey and acting Prime Minister Sir Moi Avei.
The Swamp Ghost is now sitting idle at the main wharf in Lae, Morobe province.
Government authorities are also questioning the procedures used by the National Museum and Art Gallery board in permitting a group of Americans to retrieve and dismantle the Swamp Ghost for shipment overseas.
Internal Revenue Commission (IRC) chief David Sode, when contacted yesterday, said he had not received any export documentation from the Americans trying to ship the remains of the Boeing B-17 bomber.
“A lot will depend on the legal status of export authorisation from the National Museum and Art Gallery,” Mr Sode said, when asked if the IRC would block the shipment of the relic to the US.
Sir Moi had called on all relevant authorities do all in their powers to prevent the aircraft from leaving the shores of PNG while cabinet reviews the museum board’s decision.
Meanwhile, the chairman of the National Museum and Art Gallery board Arthur Jawodimbari is away overseas.
He is understood to be on a two-week prayer retreat in North Queensland, Australia.
Museum executives could not locate him yesterday to sign important documents explaining their position on the matter.
Acting director Simon Poraituk told The National yesterday that the chairman was out of the country and could not be reached to comment on the Swamp Ghost.
Deputy board chairman Andrew Kongri also refused to comment yesterday, preferring to wait until the full board of 13 members meets to discuss the issues at hand.

Another more rational letter to the Editor from "The National"

Ground Swamp Ghost

PNG is regarded by foreigners as the most fascinating place on earth today because of its cultural diversity, unique flora and our history in World War II.
If we continue to allow war wrecks to be salvaged, as is the case with the remains of a bomber from Aigiambo Lake, what will we have left for tourists and history buffs? Our own future generations will also be robbed of this era of our history.
It is about time the authorities concerned put their heads together and save our heritage.

John Bria,
Port Moresby

and of most interest is the Editorial of "The National"

The Swamp Ghost saga
BY all means let Papua New Guinea make sensible diplomatic arrangements to retain the grounded World War Two bomber, dubbed the Swamp Ghost.While the issue is scarcely in the same category as the Public Accounts Committee investigations, the numerous leadership tribunal hearings currently underway, or PNG’s battle against rape, sorcery and murder, a case can be made out for the downed bomber’s retention in this country.
At the same time, we should avoid knee-jerk reactions and acknowledge a few facts.
The aircraft presumably remains the property of the United States Air Force.
We imagine that it would have great historical significance to those Americans who fought in WWII in our country, and to their descendants.
We would do well to recognise why the Americans were fighting in our country at the time, and to calmly assess the contribution their involvement and that of the Australians made to the preservation of our freedom and the development of the independent state of Papua New Guinea.
Had those efforts failed, landowners in the area where the Swamp Ghost was shot down might not today own any land at all.
The Boeing B-17 bomber was downed in 1942, while returning from a raid on Japanese-held Rabaul.
That’s 64 years ago.
It would seem that during that long period, only the Americans have expressed any interest in the stranded plane.
According to a local historian, three attempts have been made by American groups to salvage the aircraft and return it to the United States.
To the best of our knowledge, no attempts have been made by any Papua New Guinean government or by the local landowners, to take advantage of the bomber, to preserve it, or in any way to create a tourist attraction from the plane’s presence.
The clear message PNG has sent to the outside world has been one of suspicion over attempts to salvage and preserve the plane, while making no effort to do so itself.
Let’s be honest.
This country’s reputation for preserving contemporary history, including WWII relics, has been almost entirely negative.
Almost all of the recognised connections with WWII that still remain in our country have been ignored, vandalised or simply forgotten.
Nor is our record with those remaining vestiges of our own history any better.
Only a tiny handful of our people displayed even the slightest interest in saving the birthplace of our independence, the House of Assembly.
It is almost inconceivable that given the chance to preserve that building for posterity, we allowed it to house squatters who ultimately destroyed any possibility of restoration.
Future generations will be scathing in their assessment of our apathy over that issue.
PNG is littered with battle sites, remarkable wartime and historical cemeteries, and a host of other relics rotting away in our harsh climate. Very few indeed have been carefully maintained and are available for tourist inspection.
There are dozens of fascinating wrecks in many of our harbours; there has been no attempts made to salvage any of these as aspects of our national history. In general, they have become havens for divers and fish, or have been plundered for anything of value that remained.
The Fairfax Harbour wreck of the Burns Philp passenger ship, the MV Macdhui, a far more important war relic than the Swamp Ghost, has been allowed to rust away to near invisibility.
The sea grave of many Port Moresby residents trapped when the ship was strafed on June 17 and 18, 1942, by Japanese bombers, the Macdhui should have been preserved as a maritime memorial park, a fitting tribute to the many innocent civilians who were slaughtered on board.
Our government should step back from the outburst of passionate nationalism that has erupted over the Swamp Ghost.
If it is thought to be a matter of national importance to keep this plane in PNG, then we should pursue the matter through appropriate diplomatic channels.
But at the same time, we should look back with candour at our own poor record of preserving or capitalising upon the huge range of wartime and
other historical relics that have waited in vain for funding, for the people’s interest, and for positive action to ensure their survival

again, a great spot Peter and I hope everyone here click's onto what you spotted, without being blatant about it.

http://www.thenational.com.pg/052506/nation3.htm

regards

Mark Pilkington

[groundpounder]

well from the look of their poll results it doesnt really seem that this matter is tops on the list of the general population of png. just over 200 votes at last count. guess where most of them came from?? i agree that we shouldnt bash these people for who they are and the way they do things. but we shouldnt be afraid to state the obvious either. nobody has given a toss about this plane for over 60 years now, and this sudden interest in it is the opinion of a very few select people that stand to gain monetarily from it. what are they willing or able to do with the plane even if they were to regain control of it? the government and the museum of png can cry all they like about losing their heritage but unless they have a better plan who is going to benefit? i think that they have only stifled the preservation of a very rare artifact and might ruin it for the rest of the world if they dont wake up and realize that they are in no position to save this plane. if they are truly wanting to preserve their past i would suggest that they stop taking and talking about cash as compensation and gift this and other planes to the countries of their origin in exchange for restorations of others or assistance in establishing an infrastructure for the future preservation of their artifacts. historical significance means nothing if money will replace it. i also agree that it would be better if certain hot heads on this post just dropped their ideas about getting involved without being asked to. the guys over there wouldnt be there and wouldnt have gotten this far with the project unless they knew what they were doing. sim.

[groundpounder]

well from the look of their poll results it doesnt really seem that this matter is tops on the list of the general population of png. just over 200 votes at last count. guess where most of them came from?? i agree that we shouldnt bash these people for who they are and the way they do things. but we shouldnt be afraid to state the obvious either. nobody has given a toss about this plane for over 60 years now, and this sudden interest in it is the opinion of a very few select people that stand to gain monetarily from it. what are they willing or able to do with the plane even if they were to regain control of it? the government and the museum of png can cry all they like about losing their heritage but unless they have a better plan who is going to benefit? i think that they have only stifled the preservation of a very rare artifact and might ruin it for the rest of the world if they dont wake up and realize that they are in no position to save this plane. if they are truly wanting to preserve their past i would suggest that they stop taking and talking about cash as compensation and gift this and other planes to the countries of their origin in exchange for restorations of others or assistance in establishing an infrastructure for the future preservation of their artifacts. historical significance means nothing if money will replace it. i also agree that it would be better if certain hot heads on this post just dropped their ideas about getting involved without being asked to. the guys over there wouldnt be there and wouldnt have gotten this far with the project unless they knew what they were doing. sim.

[Jack Cook]

Rob,
You're being way over simplistic. Comparing Hawaii or Europe to
New Guinea is like comparing the Earth to the Moon,