Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:19 am
John,
When I was actively seeking parts for my PT, I came across information about two gentlemen in the Houston,TX area, who had parts for sale.
The first one, had literally a pile of intermingled parts in his hangar. He would not sell individual parts, only the whole shebang. At that time I did not own a hangar to store them, so no deal was made.
Then, there was this other guy, who had 3 PTs inside a boat shed in Kemah, TX. I knew him from the CAF
He agreed to sell me the aircraft, but he always had a reason not to go to Kemah. He passed away, and I have no idea what happened to the airplanes.
H
I bought three Ranger engine cores from the CAF in Midland.
They offered to find the engines log-books...I am still waiting
There are parts out there!! Yes, there are.
Saludos,
Tulio
When I was actively seeking parts for my PT, I came across information about two gentlemen in the Houston,TX area, who had parts for sale.
The first one, had literally a pile of intermingled parts in his hangar. He would not sell individual parts, only the whole shebang. At that time I did not own a hangar to store them, so no deal was made.
Then, there was this other guy, who had 3 PTs inside a boat shed in Kemah, TX. I knew him from the CAF
He agreed to sell me the aircraft, but he always had a reason not to go to Kemah. He passed away, and I have no idea what happened to the airplanes.
H
I bought three Ranger engine cores from the CAF in Midland.
They offered to find the engines log-books...I am still waiting
There are parts out there!! Yes, there are.
Saludos,
Tulio
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm
Yes, there are used parts and basket case projects out there. I know of a Rangervrngine 30 miles from my house and another 180 miles, both in indoor storage. They aren’t plentiful, but there’s a supply of everything you need. Remember the Ranger was also used on the Fairchild 24R s as ndvother types.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:12 pm
Also, my dad had a PT-23 for a couple of years. It wS faster, climbed better , flew better and much easier to land than out 220 hp. Stearman. The one he owned is now in the Kalamazoo Air Museum. Sadly, it was fully restored but hasn’t flown in a long time.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:44 am
A lot of restoring will become easier when we can cheaply access a 3-D printer that works in aluminum.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:55 am
I have a bunch of disjointed and loosely connected thoughts to share on this, including some of my own perceptions which may or may not even be accurate for the aviation community at large.
Even though I grew up spending a lot of time at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo, the idea of owning, flying or even working on warbirds never felt accessible to me. Warbirds were "rich boy's toys" and, right or wrong, it always felt like there was a clear difference between the people who were involved in warbirds and me. The idea of even being involved in aviation in any capacity felt like a long shot for someone like me. Looking back, those feelings were probably fueled by a combination of ignorance and the economic realities of my home situation. I could have used a mentor who was involved in aviation and could have provided guidance on how to get started. When I attended college I considered an aviation career, but even with the scholarships I had, the amount of debt I would have had to take on to cover flight costs was well beyond what I considered reasonable (and after talking with military recruiters, that was clearly not a good choice for me).
When I graduated from college, I moved across the country and started my career. During this time, I became involved with a small local museum. The collection didn't contain any warbirds, but it was rewarding to be a part of and I was starting to learning skills that could translate to a warbird museum. When I moved back to the Midwest, I wanted to continue volunteering somewhere if I could find a situation that was within a reasonable commute. I contacted a local organization and made arrangements to meet with them and start. When I showed up to work, not only was nobody there, but repeated attempts to make further contact with the organization went unanswered. To say that this was discouraging would be an understatement. I have volunteered working at events for another organization.
About six years ago, I joined EAA. Aviation has never felt more accessible and being an EAA member breaks down a lot of the barriers I have perceived over the years. As I've cleared away debt from school, I've worked on formulating a plan to pursue a light sport license. It appears to be the best avenue that balances what I can afford with the type of flying I'm interested in. Unless I sell my work soul to the corporate world (fat chance of that), I'm unlikely to ever be able to afford to own, rent, fuel, etc. a high-performance aircraft - and I'm totally ok with that. EAA has given me the tools to find something that should be sustainable for me and I'm well on my way to achieving that goal. I wish I would have gotten involved and learned about opportunities offered by EAA at a younger age. My goal is that one day I can own and fly a LS-qualified tailwheel warbird and hopefully live somewhere I can volunteer with a warbird organization in some way, whether that's working in a gift shop, turning a wrench, or whatever.
I can look back at all of this and think of a bunch of things I could, or maybe should have done differently. This is just to illustrate one person's situation and how I've perceived things at various points in time.
Making warbirds accessible is something I feel strongly that museums and organizations should be focused on. Find the young people who show an interest or aptitude for working, flying, learning the history, etc. Mentor them, encourage them and give them the opportunity to perform meaningful work. Programs such as Warbirds of Glory's Kittyhawk Academy are a gold standard for how to do this. The students who work on the B-25 learn tangible skills and their work directly results in a tangible impact on the restoration. They can go over to the aircraft, point at something and say "I did that." Being able to do that means something and I don't think it's possible to overstate how important a program like that is. There are other organizations and partnerships that are doing equally great things, such as the Air Zoo partnership with the West Michigan Aviation Academy.
EAA captures a lot of young people interested in aviation through its many programs. I can foresee these programs having a positive impact on warbirds as these young people build their knowledge and ability to work on aircraft systems. Warbird museums and organizations just have to find a way to capture these people and get them involved in an engaging way. If the local EAA chapter is letting them buck rivets, learn fabric, etc. and the warbird museum is having them fetch coffee or sweep, it isn't going to be difficult for those people to decide where they spend their time. Yes, everyone has to put in their time on the less pleasant tasks - that's part of any venture and there is no denying that - but there has to be opportunity to learn and do something meaningful along with that. Empowering people with responsibility has been a feature of every successful venture I have ever been a part of and I think it would behoove some organizations to consider how meaningful doing so can be.
Like it or not, there is a growing disparity in wealth in this country. You can all find your own reasons and beliefs for why that is, but the existence of that disparity is a fact. It is also a fact that young people are graduating with an unprecedented amount of debt. Again, you can all have your opinions on why that is, but it is undeniable that debt plays a major role in spending habits. I worry about how this will affect aviation and warbirds.
There has nearly always been individuals with large collections of warbirds. Who those individuals are have changed over the years, from Doug Champlin to people like Rod Lewis, the Friedkin family or the late Paul Allen. I think the historical and recent evidence suggests that collections like this will persist, even if individual collections do get broken up from time to time. It also seems apparent that there is sufficient interest in L-birds, Yaks/CJs and NATA types. I do wonder about the viability of the T-6 owner progressing to fighter ownership though. While it does appear true that many warbird pilots continue to become qualified in fighters, I personally don't see as many individuals moving from trainer ownership to owning a fighter. This might be a local anomaly, but my personal observation is that the population of individual owners with a stable of aircraft consisting of, say, a P-51, T-6 and Stearman is shrinking. There still seems to be plenty of people at the T-6 or Stearman level who have the ratings to fly the P-51, but they're flying the P-51 for a museum or organization rather than owning one themselves. It's great to see those people fulfilling their goals of getting that type rating and flying a fighter, but I do wonder whether there is a shrinking number of people who can afford to make that jump from owning a T-6 to owning a P-51. I could see that shrinking number having an effect on the number of airworthy aircraft.
Just some disjointed thoughts. As always, feel free to criticize.
Even though I grew up spending a lot of time at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo, the idea of owning, flying or even working on warbirds never felt accessible to me. Warbirds were "rich boy's toys" and, right or wrong, it always felt like there was a clear difference between the people who were involved in warbirds and me. The idea of even being involved in aviation in any capacity felt like a long shot for someone like me. Looking back, those feelings were probably fueled by a combination of ignorance and the economic realities of my home situation. I could have used a mentor who was involved in aviation and could have provided guidance on how to get started. When I attended college I considered an aviation career, but even with the scholarships I had, the amount of debt I would have had to take on to cover flight costs was well beyond what I considered reasonable (and after talking with military recruiters, that was clearly not a good choice for me).
When I graduated from college, I moved across the country and started my career. During this time, I became involved with a small local museum. The collection didn't contain any warbirds, but it was rewarding to be a part of and I was starting to learning skills that could translate to a warbird museum. When I moved back to the Midwest, I wanted to continue volunteering somewhere if I could find a situation that was within a reasonable commute. I contacted a local organization and made arrangements to meet with them and start. When I showed up to work, not only was nobody there, but repeated attempts to make further contact with the organization went unanswered. To say that this was discouraging would be an understatement. I have volunteered working at events for another organization.
About six years ago, I joined EAA. Aviation has never felt more accessible and being an EAA member breaks down a lot of the barriers I have perceived over the years. As I've cleared away debt from school, I've worked on formulating a plan to pursue a light sport license. It appears to be the best avenue that balances what I can afford with the type of flying I'm interested in. Unless I sell my work soul to the corporate world (fat chance of that), I'm unlikely to ever be able to afford to own, rent, fuel, etc. a high-performance aircraft - and I'm totally ok with that. EAA has given me the tools to find something that should be sustainable for me and I'm well on my way to achieving that goal. I wish I would have gotten involved and learned about opportunities offered by EAA at a younger age. My goal is that one day I can own and fly a LS-qualified tailwheel warbird and hopefully live somewhere I can volunteer with a warbird organization in some way, whether that's working in a gift shop, turning a wrench, or whatever.
I can look back at all of this and think of a bunch of things I could, or maybe should have done differently. This is just to illustrate one person's situation and how I've perceived things at various points in time.
Making warbirds accessible is something I feel strongly that museums and organizations should be focused on. Find the young people who show an interest or aptitude for working, flying, learning the history, etc. Mentor them, encourage them and give them the opportunity to perform meaningful work. Programs such as Warbirds of Glory's Kittyhawk Academy are a gold standard for how to do this. The students who work on the B-25 learn tangible skills and their work directly results in a tangible impact on the restoration. They can go over to the aircraft, point at something and say "I did that." Being able to do that means something and I don't think it's possible to overstate how important a program like that is. There are other organizations and partnerships that are doing equally great things, such as the Air Zoo partnership with the West Michigan Aviation Academy.
EAA captures a lot of young people interested in aviation through its many programs. I can foresee these programs having a positive impact on warbirds as these young people build their knowledge and ability to work on aircraft systems. Warbird museums and organizations just have to find a way to capture these people and get them involved in an engaging way. If the local EAA chapter is letting them buck rivets, learn fabric, etc. and the warbird museum is having them fetch coffee or sweep, it isn't going to be difficult for those people to decide where they spend their time. Yes, everyone has to put in their time on the less pleasant tasks - that's part of any venture and there is no denying that - but there has to be opportunity to learn and do something meaningful along with that. Empowering people with responsibility has been a feature of every successful venture I have ever been a part of and I think it would behoove some organizations to consider how meaningful doing so can be.
Like it or not, there is a growing disparity in wealth in this country. You can all find your own reasons and beliefs for why that is, but the existence of that disparity is a fact. It is also a fact that young people are graduating with an unprecedented amount of debt. Again, you can all have your opinions on why that is, but it is undeniable that debt plays a major role in spending habits. I worry about how this will affect aviation and warbirds.
There has nearly always been individuals with large collections of warbirds. Who those individuals are have changed over the years, from Doug Champlin to people like Rod Lewis, the Friedkin family or the late Paul Allen. I think the historical and recent evidence suggests that collections like this will persist, even if individual collections do get broken up from time to time. It also seems apparent that there is sufficient interest in L-birds, Yaks/CJs and NATA types. I do wonder about the viability of the T-6 owner progressing to fighter ownership though. While it does appear true that many warbird pilots continue to become qualified in fighters, I personally don't see as many individuals moving from trainer ownership to owning a fighter. This might be a local anomaly, but my personal observation is that the population of individual owners with a stable of aircraft consisting of, say, a P-51, T-6 and Stearman is shrinking. There still seems to be plenty of people at the T-6 or Stearman level who have the ratings to fly the P-51, but they're flying the P-51 for a museum or organization rather than owning one themselves. It's great to see those people fulfilling their goals of getting that type rating and flying a fighter, but I do wonder whether there is a shrinking number of people who can afford to make that jump from owning a T-6 to owning a P-51. I could see that shrinking number having an effect on the number of airworthy aircraft.
Just some disjointed thoughts. As always, feel free to criticize.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:36 pm
Here is my take, When I got interested in aviation, I could ride my bike to the local airport, go down the ramp and talk to the owners, now airports are like prisons, with aviation on the inside, and the unwashed public on the outside. We have cut off a means to draw new blood into aviation. It is even to the point of if you see someone at the fence taking photos of planes, you are to report them as possible "threats".
I may be part of the last airport kid generation, but thru the people I met I have had some amazing experiences, and been able to meet a number of people I had read about, I have worked on and flown on a large number of Warbirds, L-birds, GA Spam cans, and experimentals. I truly feel sorry for the kids today who will not have the opportunities I had.
I try to do what I can to bring new blood into aviation, I have given a number of rides to kids who have never seen a plane up close, let alone flown in one.
To kalamazookid, don't give up on owning or flying, I took money from my 401k and bought myself a Ercoupe, there re times I don't know if I own it, or it owns me, it may not be a warbird, but it is only 5 years younger than the first warbird I worked on, it is 70yrs young and has never been restored, and has had a annual for at least 68 of those 70 years.
I may be part of the last airport kid generation, but thru the people I met I have had some amazing experiences, and been able to meet a number of people I had read about, I have worked on and flown on a large number of Warbirds, L-birds, GA Spam cans, and experimentals. I truly feel sorry for the kids today who will not have the opportunities I had.
I try to do what I can to bring new blood into aviation, I have given a number of rides to kids who have never seen a plane up close, let alone flown in one.
To kalamazookid, don't give up on owning or flying, I took money from my 401k and bought myself a Ercoupe, there re times I don't know if I own it, or it owns me, it may not be a warbird, but it is only 5 years younger than the first warbird I worked on, it is 70yrs young and has never been restored, and has had a annual for at least 68 of those 70 years.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:47 pm
Matt Gunsch wrote:Here is my take, When I got interested in aviation, I could ride my bike to the local airport, go down the ramp and talk to the owners, now airports are like prisons, with aviation on the inside, and the unwashed public on the outside. We have cut off a means to draw new blood into aviation. It is even to the point of if you see someone at the fence taking photos of planes, you are to report them as possible "threats". .
So true. 10 years ago, I was doing minor maintenance on the RV in my hangar and a kid comes by with a camera taking pictures. Asks if he can come in and look around. "Sure". Follows me over to the airport wash stand where he continues taking pictures and talking.
At that point, the airport staff came over and asked him to leave. "He had no business there, yada, yada, yada." I told 'em I'd vouch for him and he could hang out with me and they still made him leave. This was at a small GA field 30+ miles from Atlanta. Just amazing.
Last edited by Kyleb on Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:44 pm
Matt Gunsch wrote:Here is my take, When I got interested in aviation, I could ride my bike to the local airport, go down the ramp and talk to the owners, now airports are like prisons, with aviation on the inside, and the unwashed public on the outside. We have cut off a means to draw new blood into aviation. It is even to the point of if you see someone at the fence taking photos of planes, you are to report them as possible "threats".
Nailed it Matt!
The result of this approach is contributing to a generation that not only can get no exposure to G.A. but actually doesn't give a flying feather about airplanes or their history.
This will be the death of general aviation.
If no one has a passion for it, there is no future.
If there is no access there is nothing to fuel the passion.
Andy
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:00 pm
The one thing that could possibly save general aviation is electric aircraft, they've already started switching over to it reducing the price per hour dramatically.
Phil
Phil
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:44 pm
phil65 wrote:The one thing that could possibly save general aviation is electric aircraft, they've already started switching over to it reducing the price per hour dramatically.
Phil
Maybe on trainers that are used a lot. For us 50 hour a year owners, the hangar rent, taxes, and insurance are the biggest cost. Fuel is (at most) 1/3 of my annual out of pocket cost.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:35 am
That may be true, but 80% of student pilots drop out before they get their private pilot certificates and one of the main reasons is sticker shock. What is the average price of a C172 with an instructor, a $175 an hour ? All of a sudden flying in RC, drone or a flight similar seems good enough.
Phil
Phil
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:15 pm
The Commemorative Air Force's Cadet Program is a great method by which the next generation(s) of aviators, maintainers, enthusiasts, etc. may get involved in the "Warbird Movement." There are many units of the CAF that are doing incredible work with Cadets. I suggest you follow the social media accounts of the Tex Hill Wing, Gulf Coast Wing, High Sky Wing, and many more to see the great work they're doing. We have Cadets working on restoration projects, research projects, going to shows as crew/support members, helping unit leadership with the running of the unit, etc. The CAF has an incredible opportunity to be a youth-centric aviation organization forcused on mentorship and personal development and our units are already seeing great results like young folks getting their A&P license, PPLs, vocational training, military aptitude test training, leadership opportunities, and other hands-on aviation experiences. Based on what I've seen, I do not think there is a shortage of interest in warbirds or general aviation. All they need are mentors.
I started out as a Cadet and I'm currently a 31 year old nominee for the CAF's General Staff (Board of Directors). While I was blessed to grow up in an aviation family, my experiences as a Cadet and the folks I was lucky enough to meet and from whom I was able to learn solidified my passion for warbird aviation. My main focus has and will be fostering the growth of the CAF's Cadet Program and the continued involvement of youth in aviation in the CAF's 80+ units across the USA. As a side note and shameless plug, if you're a CAF member, please consider requesting an absentee ballot in the General Staff election by emailing dblalack@cafhq.org with your Col. # and name by October 18.
I started out as a Cadet and I'm currently a 31 year old nominee for the CAF's General Staff (Board of Directors). While I was blessed to grow up in an aviation family, my experiences as a Cadet and the folks I was lucky enough to meet and from whom I was able to learn solidified my passion for warbird aviation. My main focus has and will be fostering the growth of the CAF's Cadet Program and the continued involvement of youth in aviation in the CAF's 80+ units across the USA. As a side note and shameless plug, if you're a CAF member, please consider requesting an absentee ballot in the General Staff election by emailing dblalack@cafhq.org with your Col. # and name by October 18.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:35 pm
The issue isn't the availability of airframes or even pilot training or the "disparity of wealth" talk (aviation had always been relatively expensive, but people managed a way to do it) it's fuel.
Listening to some of the politicians (and the wealthy activists who have their ear), gasoline will be a thing of the past in 30 years.
IF it's avalable, it will be so expensive to make warbird flying out of reach for many who now do it. If you can afford a Mustang, $30 a gallon gas may not be an issue, but what about the lower end warbirds? Not many guys will be flying L-birds or trainers. Bombers and transports...forget about it.
So unless you have a way to convert your Cub, L-19, T-6 or CJ to electric, you'll be grounded as an "unintended consequence" of the environmental movement.
BTW...I received an email the other day, there is an outfit producing electric motors that will bolt into the space (and using the same engine mounts) currently occupied by a small block Chevy V-8...the ubiquitous "hot rod" engine today.
It sells for $25,000...not including the transmission or batteries.
Listening to some of the politicians (and the wealthy activists who have their ear), gasoline will be a thing of the past in 30 years.
IF it's avalable, it will be so expensive to make warbird flying out of reach for many who now do it. If you can afford a Mustang, $30 a gallon gas may not be an issue, but what about the lower end warbirds? Not many guys will be flying L-birds or trainers. Bombers and transports...forget about it.
So unless you have a way to convert your Cub, L-19, T-6 or CJ to electric, you'll be grounded as an "unintended consequence" of the environmental movement.
BTW...I received an email the other day, there is an outfit producing electric motors that will bolt into the space (and using the same engine mounts) currently occupied by a small block Chevy V-8...the ubiquitous "hot rod" engine today.
It sells for $25,000...not including the transmission or batteries.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:20 am
The "experts" have been saying this for the past 30 years at least. Those experts tend to be activists projecting their desires to eliminate fossil fuels.
Despite all these dire predictions isn't the US now a net exporter of fossil fuels?
Despite all these dire predictions isn't the US now a net exporter of fossil fuels?
JohnB wrote:The issue isn't the availability of airframes or even pilot training or the "disparity of wealth" talk (aviation had always been relatively expensive, but people managed a way to do it) it's fuel.
Listening to some of the politicians (and the wealthy activists who have their ear), gasoline will be a thing of the past in 30 years.
IF it's avalable, it will be so expensive to make warbird flying out of reach for many who now do it. If you can afford a Mustang, $30 a gallon gas may not be an issue, but what about the lower end warbirds? Not many guys will be flying L-birds or trainers. Bombers and transports...forget about it.
Re: The Future of the Warbird Movement??
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:21 pm
IMHO, electric airplanes are and will continue to be extremely expensive to purchase.
They will require either replacement of batteries or solar panels, and this will not be cheap. The issue of disposal is also expensive.
How is the energy to power these airplanes going to be produced?
Solar, wind...whomsoever produces the energy, will be in the business to recoup their investment, and to make a profit, so I doubt that the energy will be cheap.
Saludos,
Tulio
They will require either replacement of batteries or solar panels, and this will not be cheap. The issue of disposal is also expensive.
How is the energy to power these airplanes going to be produced?
Solar, wind...whomsoever produces the energy, will be in the business to recoup their investment, and to make a profit, so I doubt that the energy will be cheap.
Saludos,
Tulio
Last edited by Tulio on Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.