B-17 waist-gun "stops"?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

I can imagine how it's done with turret guns, but what mechanism was involved in keeping B-17 waist gunners from hitting their own airplane's horizontal tail and wings/nacelles? Were they simply mechanical stops--metal brackets to prevent the gun barrels from traversing too far-- or was there some kind of electrical connection inside each gun's stanchion, to disable the gun when it neared a dangerous area?

[LysanderUK]

I'd be interested to hear whether there were any measures like this, I've always heard stories of gunners having to just be careful and sometimes coming home with self-inflicted damage.

[Paul Stroud]

From a post on Quora, one of the posters stated that his Dad, a B-17 pilot, told him that on landing after a mission with the plane handling badly he saw that the rear horizontal stabiliser was damaged. The waist gunner admitted 'that the stop on the machine gun broke and allowed the gun to traverse too far while he was firing thus shooting his own plane'.

[Larry Kraus]

I checked all of my B-17 manuals for reference to stops for the Waist Guns and there was no mention of stops in any of them. The Erection & Maintenance Manual gives instructions on setting the Fire Cut-Off cams for the Top and Ball turrets, but none for the Waist, Tail Guns or Radio Hatch Gun. There are considerable instructions on syncing the Chin Turret to the Sight assembly in the bombardier compartment and for aligning the sight in the Tail position, but nothing on firing cams for those positions.

I’ve read pretty much every book that I could find on the 8th Air Force in WWII and there are numerous references to waist gunners firing into their own horizontal stabilizers and wing tips not to mention into other B-17s in their formation.

This is from the B-17 Erection & Maintenance Manual on the Waist or Side Gun Positions

E56AEC01-CBCB-4350-8BB4-8619F49D4D68 by tanker622001, on Flickr

7E57D547-466E-4305-B35F-40DF0141462D by tanker622001, on Flickr

This is from the B-17E Flight Manual

5C3F8E92-5500-4B59-97FF-F02E9152387E by tanker622001, on Flickr

1DB96F27-35AF-4FDD-919E-EAE52B48B7AA by tanker622001, on Flickr

This is from the B-17F and G Flight Manual

CC50747D-DF76-4AE1-BAD4-B041BE966098 by tanker622001, on Flickr

From the B-17 Pilot Training Manual

8E697188-EB32-4F5B-92C4-508B5759C15C by tanker622001, on Flickr

[shrike]

Training and self preservation.

One of the B-24 groups had "Shoot here, lose pay" stenciled on the inside of the vertical stabs.

[bdk]

I see mention of a chemical toilet in the Tech Order Larry posted. Brrrr! I guess some of the crew from Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan without indoor plumbing back home were probably more accustomed to cold weather operations.

[Larry Kraus]

I found a picture in the B-24 Pilot Training Manual that shows firing arcs for the various gun positions. Note that the waist guns can easily Fire into the tail and wing if the gunner gets carried away. The B-17 would be similar.

DAFE39CA-7DE4-4396-82D3-B56262028EC1 by tanker622001, on Flickr

I also found a picture showing the location of armor plate in a G model B-17 in the B-17 Pilot Training Manual. It isn’t exactly on subject, but I found it interesting.

74751FFD-C421-486C-A5E9-AB02A5614F51 by tanker622001, on Flickr

This doesn’t say anything about stops, but these two pictures from the B-17 Erection & Maintenance manual give good views of the waist compartment.

8C1DEC3E-E522-4F67-A2D3-954003B3F62C by tanker622001, on Flickr

5BF95D70-00C0-4776-8D71-DA29569283CF by tanker622001, on Flickr