Peenemunde Lancaster
Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:18 am
Further to Ashley Towlson's note, the pilot of DV202 was my cousin Reg Harding, RCAF. So there are two of us who are related to the crew and aware of the aircraft. Apparently dives have taken place in the last few years and confirm no bodies aboard.
Any more info on the sale of the land (with lake)?
As there any group or association that would check to confirm the grave sites on the south shore? This was not possible for the post war Wargraves Commision due to the area being held by the Russians who refused access. Otherwise the bodies would have been exhumed by the Comission post war, confirmed, and placed in proper WC cemetries.
Rich Chrysler, Mount Hope, Ont. Canada
Any more info on the sale of the land (with lake)?
As there any group or association that would check to confirm the grave sites on the south shore? This was not possible for the post war Wargraves Commision due to the area being held by the Russians who refused access. Otherwise the bodies would have been exhumed by the Comission post war, confirmed, and placed in proper WC cemetries.
Rich Chrysler, Mount Hope, Ont. Canada
Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:03 am
Heres the Google earth view of Peenemunde, the lake in the middle has already been marked the Kolpinsee & a note with it says
"If we could have a HIGH res picture, we could see a british bombarder Lancaster immerged in the Kölpinsee(lake) "
Like all things on the net, just because somebody has Id it doesn't mean its the correct one ! It could also be the bigger one in the forground.
"If we could have a HIGH res picture, we could see a british bombarder Lancaster immerged in the Kölpinsee(lake) "
Like all things on the net, just because somebody has Id it doesn't mean its the correct one ! It could also be the bigger one in the forground.
Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:18 am
Interesting photos.
Lancaster in Kolpinsee
Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:35 pm
The pictures posted today clearly show the aircraft as it sits in the lake correctly marked Kolpinsee. It is not the bigger lake in the foreground.
My son was there in 2004 and ventured as close as he dared on foot through marsh and tall bullrushes. DV202 lies in the southeast area of the lake. A photo he took at that time shows the mid upper section (about 12ft) of fuselage over the main wing spar sitting proud of the surface. The main wings lie just under the surface and can be seen in the posted photo.
My son was there in 2004 and ventured as close as he dared on foot through marsh and tall bullrushes. DV202 lies in the southeast area of the lake. A photo he took at that time shows the mid upper section (about 12ft) of fuselage over the main wing spar sitting proud of the surface. The main wings lie just under the surface and can be seen in the posted photo.
Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:08 pm
That's fascinating! Is there any chance you could post the photographs that your son took? Are you trying to do anything with respect to locating the graves? I imagine the new German government might be more helpful, and wish you the best of luck in doing so.
All the best,
Richard
All the best,
Richard
Re: Lancaster in Kolpinsee
Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:29 pm
richc wrote:............ DV202 lies in the southeast area of the lake. A photo he took at that time shows the mid upper section (about 12ft) of fuselage over the main wing spar sitting proud of the surface. The main wings lie just under the surface and can be seen in the posted photo.
This must be DV202 then, this is the 'closest G.E.' can get.
[url]
[/url]
Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:51 pm
Heres some more info from 2003
"A Canadian film crew has partially documented the crash while on a current visit to Pennemünde and the families of the two Canadians are now aware of the fate of their loved ones."
From this web site
http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcfo ... DCForumID6
And some pics here that show the fuselage section & an engine at least was recovered
http://www.bomber-command.de/dv202_ph.html
"A Canadian film crew has partially documented the crash while on a current visit to Pennemünde and the families of the two Canadians are now aware of the fate of their loved ones."
From this web site
http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcfo ... DCForumID6
And some pics here that show the fuselage section & an engine at least was recovered
http://www.bomber-command.de/dv202_ph.html
Lancaster DV202 in Kolpinsee
Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:28 pm
The picture on the Bomber Command website http://www.bomber-command.de/dv202_ph.html of the fuelage is in fact my son's pic that Karsten graciously posted.
We (the families of the crew we've been able to contact) want very much to find the graves and have them positively identified and placed in proper cemeteries.
Does anybody know where to start as far as the German government is concerned?
I've been in touch with the RAF attache in Berlin months ago, but have heard nothing more.
Ideas?
We (the families of the crew we've been able to contact) want very much to find the graves and have them positively identified and placed in proper cemeteries.
Does anybody know where to start as far as the German government is concerned?
I've been in touch with the RAF attache in Berlin months ago, but have heard nothing more.
Ideas?
DV202 KM-Z - Lancaster in Lake in Peenemunde - Kolpiensee
Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:04 pm
I've been researching the history of this plane and have been fascinated by some of the posts that I've seen and the various unanswered questions that arise. Could someone:
1. Explain why the plane in the lake is definitely DV202 (there seems some confusion in the posts above) - has someone been to see the markings?
2. Are the pictures of the engine (presummably in the Peenemunde museum?) definitely from DV202?
3. Is it possible that any of the crew survived the impact - the reports suggest that the plane is or was largelely intact?
4. There are also suggestions on the internet from the Red Cross that the bodies are burried on the south side of the lake - where did these reports come from and have they been confirmed?
5. Has anyone found the graves?
6. The internet also cotains reports that the Lancaster was shot down in the 15th entry of the night from Tony Wood's site - why are pople so confident of this - e.g. the 12th entry of the night also refers to a 4 engined aeroplane over Peenemunde?
7. The internet reports that the plane is in the south-west part of the lake. Google earth contains the outline of soemthing which could be the plane in the south-west part of the lake. Is the fuzzy shape that one can see the plane?
Any information will be very gratefully received.
1. Explain why the plane in the lake is definitely DV202 (there seems some confusion in the posts above) - has someone been to see the markings?
2. Are the pictures of the engine (presummably in the Peenemunde museum?) definitely from DV202?
3. Is it possible that any of the crew survived the impact - the reports suggest that the plane is or was largelely intact?
4. There are also suggestions on the internet from the Red Cross that the bodies are burried on the south side of the lake - where did these reports come from and have they been confirmed?
5. Has anyone found the graves?
6. The internet also cotains reports that the Lancaster was shot down in the 15th entry of the night from Tony Wood's site - why are pople so confident of this - e.g. the 12th entry of the night also refers to a 4 engined aeroplane over Peenemunde?
7. The internet reports that the plane is in the south-west part of the lake. Google earth contains the outline of soemthing which could be the plane in the south-west part of the lake. Is the fuzzy shape that one can see the plane?
Any information will be very gratefully received.
Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:24 pm
totally assinine terms for the auction!!
Peenemunde Lancaster
Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:53 pm
I'll try to answer the gentleman's questions regarding this aircraft. I am the cousin of the pilot, P/O Reg Harding RCAF. I have been working with two of the grandson's of the tail gunner Sgt. Stan Shaw, Russel and Ashley Towlson.
1. The aircraft in the lake has been confirmed to be 44 Sqdn's DV202 from the serial number plates on the engine that was retreived from the site a few years ago. These engines were all original to the aircraft and hadn't been changed out from when fitted new, the aircraft only having accumulated some 73 hours at the time of the crash.
2. The engine in the Peenemunde museum was indeed from this aircraft. It apparently was relatively easy for the locals to retreive because all the engine mountings had deteriorated to the point that the engines now lay on the lake bottom, completely detatched from the wing mountings.
3 and 4. We families of the crew only wish there had been survivors at the time! It has always seemed to me that an aircraft with a crew of 7 that had come down so intact would have had at lest one survivor. However, all we have to go on is the word of the German report that was forwarded to the International Red Cross in Geneva that bodies (how many we do not know) were recovered and buried "on the south banking of the Kolpinsee" on or about the 24th of August 1943, some 6 days after the crash. I have a copy of the RAF letter from the ministry sent to the widow of the tail gunner, stating this "unconfirmed" information and that it had come by way of the IRC. Meanwhile we cannot find decendants of any of the rest of the crew who would have similar letters.
5. None of the graves have been found to the best of our knowledge to this date. This is becoming increasingly timely as apparently the land along the south shore is now being developed. We don't want some bulldozer any day now to accidentally "discover" these graves while we have this possible knowledge.
6. To answer whether they were indeed the 15th down that night, one would have to question the author of "The Peenemunde Raid, Mr. Martin Middlebrook who went through exhaustive investigations before his 1981 book was written. This 15th down was how I based my research on Tony Wood's site, pinpointing Deiter Mussett as pilot of the nightfighter, giving time and altitude.
7. The fuzzy shape in the Google earth picture is indeed the wreckage, lying in the southwest portion of the lake.
1. The aircraft in the lake has been confirmed to be 44 Sqdn's DV202 from the serial number plates on the engine that was retreived from the site a few years ago. These engines were all original to the aircraft and hadn't been changed out from when fitted new, the aircraft only having accumulated some 73 hours at the time of the crash.
2. The engine in the Peenemunde museum was indeed from this aircraft. It apparently was relatively easy for the locals to retreive because all the engine mountings had deteriorated to the point that the engines now lay on the lake bottom, completely detatched from the wing mountings.
3 and 4. We families of the crew only wish there had been survivors at the time! It has always seemed to me that an aircraft with a crew of 7 that had come down so intact would have had at lest one survivor. However, all we have to go on is the word of the German report that was forwarded to the International Red Cross in Geneva that bodies (how many we do not know) were recovered and buried "on the south banking of the Kolpinsee" on or about the 24th of August 1943, some 6 days after the crash. I have a copy of the RAF letter from the ministry sent to the widow of the tail gunner, stating this "unconfirmed" information and that it had come by way of the IRC. Meanwhile we cannot find decendants of any of the rest of the crew who would have similar letters.
5. None of the graves have been found to the best of our knowledge to this date. This is becoming increasingly timely as apparently the land along the south shore is now being developed. We don't want some bulldozer any day now to accidentally "discover" these graves while we have this possible knowledge.
6. To answer whether they were indeed the 15th down that night, one would have to question the author of "The Peenemunde Raid, Mr. Martin Middlebrook who went through exhaustive investigations before his 1981 book was written. This 15th down was how I based my research on Tony Wood's site, pinpointing Deiter Mussett as pilot of the nightfighter, giving time and altitude.
7. The fuzzy shape in the Google earth picture is indeed the wreckage, lying in the southwest portion of the lake.