Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:56 pm
You mean Frank Sanders, the airshow pilot who flew with with one eye tied behind his back?k5083 wrote:...and in a different league than Pardue, Sanders, and the like.
How do you determine your "leagues"?
Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:41 pm
Well, I think all of us who watch aerobatics learn to distinguish the very very good from those few whose skill almost borders on the supernatural. The way Hoover and Lefty flew, you knew you would never see anyone fly a P-51 or P-38 like that ever again. Jerry flew Spits like that. Those three guys constitute a "league" in my estimation. I never saw another pilot fly a warbird with that level of confidence and control. You can name a lot of great warbird pilots, and I've seen most of 'em and agree they're great, but these guys are at the tip of the pyramid. Hoover and Lefty are justly famous; Jerry, unjustly, is not. And you may not agree with me, but the crowd at Oshkosh that day did.
August
August
Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:07 pm
k5083 wrote: Those three guys constitute a "league" in my estimation. I never saw another pilot fly a warbird with that level of confidence and control.
August
Not even Ray Hanna?
Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:11 pm
Chad Veich wrote:Not even Ray Hanna?
Never saw Hanna and I greatly regret it. From what I have heard, he may have been the one Spitfire pilot in the UK as good as Jerry.
August
Spit
Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:15 pm
I recall a few years back we took the B-25 to Arlington and Craig McCaw had it on display there. The mech looking after it (Peter __? he's got a shop there) said it had serious issues and needed a complete rebuilt. He (in case you never heard of them they sold their Seattle based cellular company to AT&T for about a zillion dollars!) bought it because one of his brothers was having a million $$ T-28 rebuilt and wanted something for himself. His pilot went south to pick it up and scared himself silly trying to fly it. Bud Granley then flew it up. Not wanting to spend the $$$ required to rebuild it, they had it for sale for a time then loaned it to MOF where it sits. BTW Victoria Air Maint. did the t-28 and it was gorgious but I've never heard of it being flown since.
MK923
Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:52 pm
Excuse my ignorance here, but what is the main issue of MK923's physically
poor condition? Is she still held together (loosely, I presume from some
reports) with magnesium rivets? Or are there more customary basic airframe and systems
fatigue and corrosion problems to be addressed?
poor condition? Is she still held together (loosely, I presume from some
reports) with magnesium rivets? Or are there more customary basic airframe and systems
fatigue and corrosion problems to be addressed?
Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:19 pm
From what I have heard it is due to loose rivets and needs to be re-skined also after the sale of MK923 to the new owners MK923 was ground looped twice, once was some what serious putting the Spit through a ditch and between 2 trees ( not sure who was flying it )
Also since MK923 is a very original airframe with real WWII combat under its belt, I have heard it won't be re-skined because they want to keep it original ( just what I heard )
Also as for Jerry wearing out his welcome, Yes Jerry is very determined to have things his way when he displayed the Spit but after all the hours I have talking with himsome of the air show organizers treated him pretty crappy ( promising him a hanger for storage of the Spit at the show then when he arrived no hangers avaliable and wanting him to leave Cliff's Spit on the ramp all night, Jerry whould just leave )
As for Jerry's flying, well I grew up watching him in my back yard and at all the local shows I attended and since been to lots of Warbird shows and have Never seen anyone even come close to performing in a Spit or any other Warbird the way BIlling did. Far as I'm concerned the low level acrobatics in Vintage WWII aircraft is pretty much dead ( Insurane, lots of rules, wear and tear on the aircraft )
If you would like to see some of Billing flying the Spit check out these video's
http://www.jerrybilling.com/jerry_billing_video.htm
Also for some of the troublesJerry experianced with the Spit ( in his own words )
http://www.jerrybilling.com/jerry_billi ... tfires.htm
Cheers Dave C
Also since MK923 is a very original airframe with real WWII combat under its belt, I have heard it won't be re-skined because they want to keep it original ( just what I heard )
Also as for Jerry wearing out his welcome, Yes Jerry is very determined to have things his way when he displayed the Spit but after all the hours I have talking with himsome of the air show organizers treated him pretty crappy ( promising him a hanger for storage of the Spit at the show then when he arrived no hangers avaliable and wanting him to leave Cliff's Spit on the ramp all night, Jerry whould just leave )
As for Jerry's flying, well I grew up watching him in my back yard and at all the local shows I attended and since been to lots of Warbird shows and have Never seen anyone even come close to performing in a Spit or any other Warbird the way BIlling did. Far as I'm concerned the low level acrobatics in Vintage WWII aircraft is pretty much dead ( Insurane, lots of rules, wear and tear on the aircraft )
If you would like to see some of Billing flying the Spit check out these video's
http://www.jerrybilling.com/jerry_billing_video.htm
Also for some of the troublesJerry experianced with the Spit ( in his own words )
http://www.jerrybilling.com/jerry_billi ... tfires.htm
Cheers Dave C
Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:35 pm
Regarding Cliff, The movie "The Pilot" is excellent. It's not about Warbirds, but it's an awesome airline movie. Here's a bio from the internet. THE PILOT FACTS
He's the best pilot in the sky, drunk or sober, but one time he pressed his luck too far.
Cast Cliff Robertson, Diane Baker, Frank Converse, Gordon MacRae, Dana Andrews
Director(s) Cliff Robertson
Genre(s) Dramas, Drama, High Flying, Substance Abuse
Release Year 1979
Running Time 92 minutes
He's the best pilot in the sky, drunk or sober, but one time he pressed his luck too far.
Cast Cliff Robertson, Diane Baker, Frank Converse, Gordon MacRae, Dana Andrews
Director(s) Cliff Robertson
Genre(s) Dramas, Drama, High Flying, Substance Abuse
Release Year 1979
Running Time 92 minutes
Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:42 pm
met cliff at the 03 aviation hall of fame event. he was quite gracious, 110 % a gentleman!!! he's been a screen idle of mine for decades. he took some bad public relations years ago, to the point of where he was near blacklisted from making movies, but it was all unfounded info. he's a true a screen legend & a stand up aviation historian!!!
Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:50 pm
Loved him in 633 Squadron. Class actor, classic aircraft.
Jeff
Jeff
Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:06 am
I'm really curious to know why this aircraft would need to be reskinned rather than just replacing the rivets.Ontario-Warbird wrote:Also since MK923 is a very original airframe with real WWII combat under its belt, I have heard it won't be re-skined because they want to keep it original ( just what I heard )
Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:04 am
How the Spit looked in 2003:
Cliff Robertson and Spitfire
Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:27 pm
Are you sure about Jerry flying a Spitfire solo act in 1987 at Oskosh? Could it have been there earlier, or at another show? I remember Bud Granley with his usual expert flying about that time at Ohskosh, and also the excellent show by Elliot Cross in Rayborn Thompson's Spit last year. I only wish it had flow in the Warbird show with the other fighters, in addition to the one acro flight. I met Cliff at the Carefree,Az. reunion and he seemed like a nice down to earth guy. He does a lot of soaring.
Frank Tallman and the Duck
Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:33 am
I never saw another pilot fly a warbird with that level of confidence and control. You can name a lot of great warbird pilots, and I've seen most of 'em and agree they're great, but these guys are at the tip of the pyramid. Hoover and Lefty are justly famous; Jerry, unjustly, is not. And you may not agree with me, but the crowd at Oshkosh that day did
I never saw Jerry fly but I did get the pleasure of seeing both Mr.Hoover and Mr. Garner/Gardner?fly at various functions over the years.However,the most impressive routine that I have ever seen was when Mr. Frank Tallman wrung out his Grumman Duck at the Mojave Air Races in 1974. The manuevers that he pulled with that pudgy Biplane were really incredible and some seemed insane and near impossible.Mere words cannot do it justice , it really had to be seen to be believed.Maybe the fact that I was 13 yrs old and was a big fan of Mr. Tallman biases my memory but I really dont think so. Tim
I never saw Jerry fly but I did get the pleasure of seeing both Mr.Hoover and Mr. Garner/Gardner?fly at various functions over the years.However,the most impressive routine that I have ever seen was when Mr. Frank Tallman wrung out his Grumman Duck at the Mojave Air Races in 1974. The manuevers that he pulled with that pudgy Biplane were really incredible and some seemed insane and near impossible.Mere words cannot do it justice , it really had to be seen to be believed.Maybe the fact that I was 13 yrs old and was a big fan of Mr. Tallman biases my memory but I really dont think so. Tim
Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:22 am
Seeing that great shot of MK923 in the museum, that under surface 'blue' still offends. 
I had prepared all the painting details/spec for Bill Ross when he undertook major refurbishment of MK923 for Cliff Robertson in the mid 1970's - works paint drawings, colour chips and templates for the codes. I researched at our then public Record Office and established that MK923 was aircraft Z of 5J/126 Squadron RAF. So we could get it exactly as it was when operational from May to December 1944.
When it came to application Jerry Billing assured Bill that I was wrong, it was not 'Medium Sea Grey', as I had directed, but a duck egg blue.
Good old Jerry, too much time in the Mediterranean sun in Malta flying Med theatre Spitfires with 'Azure Blue' undersides.
At this time I was working for GM/Vauxhall here in the UK and I was mightily impressed to be tracked down by phone during my daily travels within the company (no mobiles back then) to receive a call from Cliff in the US to thank me. Subsequently I too, like Bill Greenwood, met him at the Carefree private function. My wife is a big fan and I noted how he worked the hanger gently, talking to every group in the course of an hour or so. You don't have to do that - a gentleman.
It is my understanding talking to both Jerry Billing and Gordon Plaskett, who had coached him in the TF-51, that although the longest private owner of a Spitfire airworthy or otherwise he had never flown it.
PeterA
I had prepared all the painting details/spec for Bill Ross when he undertook major refurbishment of MK923 for Cliff Robertson in the mid 1970's - works paint drawings, colour chips and templates for the codes. I researched at our then public Record Office and established that MK923 was aircraft Z of 5J/126 Squadron RAF. So we could get it exactly as it was when operational from May to December 1944.
When it came to application Jerry Billing assured Bill that I was wrong, it was not 'Medium Sea Grey', as I had directed, but a duck egg blue.
Good old Jerry, too much time in the Mediterranean sun in Malta flying Med theatre Spitfires with 'Azure Blue' undersides.
At this time I was working for GM/Vauxhall here in the UK and I was mightily impressed to be tracked down by phone during my daily travels within the company (no mobiles back then) to receive a call from Cliff in the US to thank me. Subsequently I too, like Bill Greenwood, met him at the Carefree private function. My wife is a big fan and I noted how he worked the hanger gently, talking to every group in the course of an hour or so. You don't have to do that - a gentleman.
It is my understanding talking to both Jerry Billing and Gordon Plaskett, who had coached him in the TF-51, that although the longest private owner of a Spitfire airworthy or otherwise he had never flown it.
PeterA