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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:33 am 
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DEFENSE TECH article discussion on the F-22:

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PART 1:

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There ain't a lot of love for the ol' F-22A Raptor outside of Air Force and Lockheed Martin circles these days. Critics, especially author James Stevenson and F-16 designer Pierra Sprey, both from the Center for Defense Information, have called the Raptor an overweight, gas-guzzling, unaffordable turkey. Their presentation on the F-22 has inspired a number of scathing articles. The bottom line, Sprey told me in June, is that the Air Force has forgotten how to design fighters ... and besides, fighters are irrelevant in today's conflicts. If the Air Force were truly interested in winning wars, Sprey said, "it would buy more A-10s" to support the grunts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But the folks at the 1st Fighter Wing, which will fly 36 F-22s alongside 24 F-15Cs from Langley Air Force Base in southern Virginia, told me (in so many words) that Sprey is full of it.

"One thing we've done really well in the United States is not predict the next war," 1st FW commander Brigadier General Burton Field told me last week. "[So] the Air Force, a while back, started concentrating on ... capabilities across a spectrum."

The F-22 represents the high-end of that spectrum. Yes, it is expensive. No, it is not suited to all fights. But if and when it comes time to take down integrated air defenses to achieve air dominance, especially in a conventional conflict, the F-22 is the best weapon around. "As long as you own the air," Raptor jockey Captain Phil Colomy said, "you have the freedom to do what you want on the ground."

Surprisingly, despite the Raptor's strong air-to-air record in recent exercises (108 kills to no losses at Northern Edge), it's the aircraft's air-to-ground prowess that Field and Colomy are most excited about. They said that with strong front-aspect stealth, high ceiling, long range (when properly tanked), and the ability to cruise faster than Mach 1, the F-22 can get to distant battlefields, surprise air defenses and lob Joint Direct Attack Munitions farther than 20 miles to kill them. No other aircraft can do that, Colomy said.

As for Sprey's criticism -- based on a cursory glance at technical data -- that the F-22 is a poor performer, former F-15 pilot Colomy pointed to the aircraft's huge control surfaces, powerful engines and advanced flight control system. "We will turn inside anybody."

But even if it is a kick-ass performer, the Raptor remains disproportionately expensive. Cuts to the program mean the Air Force will field only 183 F-22s against a requirement for 381. That's just seven operational squadrons, three fewer than the Air Force needs to give each rotational Air Expeditionary Force a Raptor component. Plans are already afoot to improve F-15s to soldier on alongside F-22s, but that's a stop-gap. Bottom line: "We need more Raptor squadrons," Field said.


PART 2

Quote:
In subsequent posts, I will address some of the particulars of Sprey's criticisms ... and the Raptor fliers' responses.

In a fight against other airplanes, the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor's stealth capabilities are useless, claims noted fighter designer Pierre Sprey, since the Raptor must radiate to detect the enemy, thus announcing its location to everyone in the vicinity with a Radar Warning Receiver.

Under these circumstances, a Raptor is no better than any late-model fighter such as the Sukhoi Su-27 series, which is considerably cheaper.

Not so, said the Raptor jockeys of the 27th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.

"I'm going to be able to see him before he sees me," Captain Phil Colomy assured me. He was refering to radar detection, not visual.

How so? I asked. If you radiate, everyone's going to know where you are. To use Sprey's analogy, it's like using a flashlight in a dark room. Sure, you can see the bad guy, but he can see you too.

Colomy just smiled. 1st Fighter Wing commander Brigadier General Burton Field spoke up:

"Enemy RWR can't detect radiating F-22s," he said. "We haven't had a problem with that."

I asked if that had something to do with the Raptor's Raytheon APG-77 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which uses many tiny nimble radar beams instead of one big, slow beam.

Field just smiled. This is classified, but widely known to be true.

Basically, here's how it works. RWRs are like any sensor: they operate at a certain fidelity lending a certain degree of dependability. If you radiate only briefly or only a little, RWRs aren't going to be able to pin you down. A small, smart, well-directed beam -- such as that from any new AESA -- is too fleeting for a firm fix. It's like using a flashlight in a dark room, but snapping it on then off in a fraction of a second.

One day RWRs will catch up to the new AESAs. But for right now, the radars have the advantage. What this means is that the F-22 can use its radar without entirely sacrificing stealth. That's on top of the other advantages of the AESA.


Regards,

t~


Last edited by Originalboxcar on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:40 am 
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I wonder if the Northrop YF-23's would have had as many problems if they had been chosen instead. Public reports show that the F-22 beat the F-23 in the fighter competition. However, my father used to work for Vought (a sub contractor on the B-2) and he said that the folks at Northrop said they the F-23 flew circles around the F-22 but that the Air Force gave the contract to Lockheed because they didn't think that Northrop could deliver because of their resources that were devoted to building the B-2's.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:19 am 
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Connery wrote:
I wonder if the Northrop YF-23's would have had as many problems if they had been chosen instead....


Connery,

I'm not convinced that the raptor has problems but rather limitations. The article stated that the USAF has been unable to predict the next war (I'd cut them a little slack since it pretty hard to predict the future). As such, the specs laid out of the next fighter is an attempt to address many different warfare tactics.

As I've said in the past, it's impossible to build something that does everything very well. "You want it good, fast or cheap, pick two?" That said, what the F-22 can do is good, but it ain't cheap! Are there fighters that can out dual the f-22 in close quarters? Perhaps. Can they even get to that point before they are killed by the Raptor first? Probably not.

Time/combat will tell.

Regards,

t~


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:27 am 
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The only valid argument anyone has against the F-22 is that its expensive.

Any criticisms of capabilities are due to not knowing the true information (e.g. it is classified).

I fly one of the world's premier multi-role fighters, and if I had the choice next time I rolled into harm's way I'd rather be in a Raptor.

You can argue if the Raptor has a place in the current AF inventory due to threats, predicted future threats, etc...that is a matter for politicians and strategists. The tacticians know that the Raptor can kick the snot out of anything currently fielded in the world.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:32 am 
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The demo they put on at Oshkosh was IMO the most impressive jet demo I've seen in my 25+ years of working/attending airshows...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:14 am 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
Any criticisms of capabilities are due to not knowing the true information (e.g. it is classified)....


Very good point Randy! The population at large doesn't know what the Raptor's true capabilities are due to classification. IF in fact the aircraft capabilities are marginal in some areas against a foe, I believe a successful fight would come down to the pilot factor, of which we have the best trained in the world :wink: :wink:

Regards,

t~


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:02 pm 
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Sounds like a bunch of political BS to me.

Someone didnt get the contract, or is pissing and moaning about things just to stir the pot.

Point is, they should stop wasting money on inquiries in the senate and get some real work done instead of playing the "well I didnt get my piece of the pie so I am going to cry" game.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:04 pm 
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From everything I've read previously, the Raptor pretty much outclasses any fighter in the sky. One program I saw discussed how F-15s were put in mock combat with Raptors, and the Raptor smoked 'em everytime. As was said, the only criticism I've seen of the Raptor is the price tag. But then again, B-2s aren't cheap either.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:33 pm 
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 2-cost.htm

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The average unit flyaway cost for the F/A-22 in 2003 was about $178 million, while the unit flyaway costs for future annual buys were projected before the budget decision to decrease to $127 million, $111 million, and $108 million in fiscal years 2007, 2008, and 2009 respectively [that is to say, roughly double the unit flyaway costs of the single engine F-35]. With the program will be truncated in 2008, the less expensive aircraft in 2009 and beyond will not be bought and unit costs are projected at $135 million in 2007 and $149 million in 2008 (increases associated with close-out of production).


You think $127M is alot for the raptor, but figure in present $$'s, Boeing is selling F-15K's (read new F-15E's) to South Korea for $105M. My how the cost of living goes up!

regards,

t~


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:21 pm 
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I saw the F-22 display at Elmendorf AFB on sunday, and it was truly the most impressive jet aircraft display I have ever seen. It took off, went vertical, and then literally hovered.... pointed straight up ... for about 20 seconds!!! I've seen Sean Tucker do this in his tiny acrobatic aircraft, but never anything larger, let alone a fully loaded jet fighter! It then proceeded to climb, and flipped backwards and rotated around it's entire axis in virtually the same space of sky... without being in non-controlled flight. The slow flight routine in this aircraft was like nothing I have ever seen before.

While I cannot say one-way-or-the-other whether the aircraft is worth its price, I can say it is clearly an extremely impressive aircraft.

Cheers. Richard


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:47 pm 
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It's like any other new system coming online. People will cry, boo hoo and rip their hair out and telling you that it's no good. However no one will really know until it's put through the mill. Good, bad or indifferent combat will tell the tale.

I would love to give an aircraft analogy here, but I better stick with what I know.

*Twists the dials on the Wayback machine*

Remember back to the glorious 1980's and the Armys latest and greatest toy. The be all and end all on the battlefield. The M1 Abrams tank. It has cool laser stuff and computers. It's high tech to the max.

MY GOD NO!!! The nay sayers expound. It costs to much! The techie stuff is new and unproven. It can't work!! MY GOD YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE ENGINE OUT TO CHANGE THE OIL! Do away with this expensive boondoggle. The old reliable M-60's are fine. They are ...well...old.....and reliable. No need to move forward. Tanks are obsolete anyway and have no place on the battlefield of tomorrow.

Any of that sound familiar to any of you?

Know anybody in a combat zone who ain't real happy to see an M1 coming? (Besides the enemy and yes I know one of you jokers would have said it)

Somehow I am willing to give the Raptor the benefit of the doubt until someone can show conclusively that it is useless. People can say it sucks til the cows come home. I need to see hard evidence before I'll climb up on the bandwagon with them.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Just don't make beer cans out of the F-15's, 16's just yet.....I haven't seen one fly so I really can't say. I only know that our first line is still
manned by F-15, F-16 & F/A-18's. We need to get this newbird out of the airshow circuit and unfortunately get it dirty.....Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:22 pm 
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The naysayers should ask themselves....

Please name one airplane (other then a Cessna 172, maybe) that came out of the box perfect. Not the B-17, 29, or 52. Or any of the century series fighters. Even the Phantom had to wait for a gun.

FOR PETE'S SAKE...
Give the thing a chance...it has been is service for just a couple of months.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:15 pm 
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Northrop also found themselves in a political pickle, becuase of their inability to control cost overruns and deadlines on the B-2 project. Wonder if that might've played a role?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:46 am 
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The political naysayers took numbers out of context as regards the B2.

The price per unit kept going up because Congress kept reducing the buy number !

I personally like a bomber that is hard to see and can deliver 82 JDAMS on 82 separate targets in one run !


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