China Lake Derelicts
Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:56 am
This may be an ignorant question, but maybe discussed before....
A recent post led me back to a website I had seen in the past http://www.chinalakealumni.org/R-W-Wrecks.htm . Great photos that raise some questions....
There are alot of wrecks, derelicts of ALL types...many of them photographed fairly recently (+/- 10 years). Do many of these airframes still remain out on the range?
It seems like MANY of these airframes are excellent candidates for rebuilds and museums...particularly the Hellcat drone, F-89, F-11's, and the loads of Cougars and Thundersteaks/Flashes.
Has there been any attempt to retrieve any of these airframes?
A recent post led me back to a website I had seen in the past http://www.chinalakealumni.org/R-W-Wrecks.htm . Great photos that raise some questions....
There are alot of wrecks, derelicts of ALL types...many of them photographed fairly recently (+/- 10 years). Do many of these airframes still remain out on the range?
It seems like MANY of these airframes are excellent candidates for rebuilds and museums...particularly the Hellcat drone, F-89, F-11's, and the loads of Cougars and Thundersteaks/Flashes.
Has there been any attempt to retrieve any of these airframes?
Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:21 am
I was out there a couple years ago to pick up an item from a gentleman that works there. We had a long talk and he showed me a bunch of photos of the B-17's and B-29s including the photos of the first air-to-air missile hit which was a B-17. He asked him about the relics and he said that most of the planes and stuff was bought about 2000 and cleared out.
Unfortunately all my correspondence was done on the internet and I suffered a computer crash, which lost all of his information. I had planned on getting some of the photos.
I have fellow racer that's works there but he doesn't work in that area. He did invite me out there some today so I'll try and take him up on it.
Unfortunately all my correspondence was done on the internet and I suffered a computer crash, which lost all of his information. I had planned on getting some of the photos.
I have fellow racer that's works there but he doesn't work in that area. He did invite me out there some today so I'll try and take him up on it.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:33 pm
wow!!!! their are still planes of the ww2 / post korea vintage still out their?? how irresponsible of our government / military to leave these historic legacies out there to rot on our own soil!!! ok!!!! i understand the lack of historic perspective going back 30 + years ago, but now??? all the historic aviation preservation personel of all branches are equally to blame & should be kicked in the keester!!
Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:53 pm
That F-84C looks to be pretty much complete and intact. Of course, it might have taken a missile hit the day after the photo was taken (or in the 10-20 years since).
But if it's still there, that's one I'd like to see restored. How cool would it be to see a straight-winged F-84 back in the skies (or ANY F-84 for that matter)?
But if it's still there, that's one I'd like to see restored. How cool would it be to see a straight-winged F-84 back in the skies (or ANY F-84 for that matter)?
Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:49 pm
There's a few things still lurking "out there".....the Navy will let them rot before any money is made available to recover anything. There's allways a big fight between the NHC and Pepsi-Cola over who has jurisdiction, who coughs up the money for something, who says what "whomever" gets. So while the big dogs at NHC and Pepsi-Cola tie each others knickers in knots, what remains out here lies slowly rusting into the desert. Nobody out here has the funding to do much.....and what resources ARE available are usually spent fighting to keep what's here.....here.
Several years ago the Museum here on base put in the paperwork for acredation as an official Navy Museum. One of the cronies at Pepsi-Cola was "in the chain" and stuffed it in a bottom drawer. It was only discovered when the SOB retired!
As for other museums or private individuals recovering anything...not freaking likely! To much walked out of here "in the old days" and the big kafuffle with Doc and Here's Hopin put the final nail in the recovery coffin. So in a nutshell...ain't nobody getting nuthin from China Lake. It would take an act of congress and these days they're far to busy cutting each others throats over stupid poo poo to deal with a few old hulks laying in some God forsaken desert.
And as far as photos...unless you have a specific camera permit.....DON'T. If you get caught taking photos in a restricted area, especially in todays security intense world, you'll probably be spending the night with "Bubba" over in the greybar motel. If your lucky, the base Cops will take your camera, not give it back, and escort you to the main gate and bar you from ever setting foot on base again. It's happend, seen it done and it weren't pretty.
Several years ago the Museum here on base put in the paperwork for acredation as an official Navy Museum. One of the cronies at Pepsi-Cola was "in the chain" and stuffed it in a bottom drawer. It was only discovered when the SOB retired!
As for other museums or private individuals recovering anything...not freaking likely! To much walked out of here "in the old days" and the big kafuffle with Doc and Here's Hopin put the final nail in the recovery coffin. So in a nutshell...ain't nobody getting nuthin from China Lake. It would take an act of congress and these days they're far to busy cutting each others throats over stupid poo poo to deal with a few old hulks laying in some God forsaken desert.
And as far as photos...unless you have a specific camera permit.....DON'T. If you get caught taking photos in a restricted area, especially in todays security intense world, you'll probably be spending the night with "Bubba" over in the greybar motel. If your lucky, the base Cops will take your camera, not give it back, and escort you to the main gate and bar you from ever setting foot on base again. It's happend, seen it done and it weren't pretty.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:08 pm
What's the deal with the B-29 Here's Hopin? Is it out in the weeds, under restoration, or in storage? There was some rumors of it being incorporated into a China Lake NAS Museum...
Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:21 pm
It's in storage. Someday...... 
......it'll be incorperated into the China Lake Museum. Unfortunatly, most of it's missing parts are in a certain compound near Anza Borrego. Can't prove it....but I'm 99% certain about it. Between the Disney butchers, USAM, the CAF and a few others, what hulks are/were left got stripped of usable parts. Now, "back in the day" the powers that were, simply didn't care about a bunch of old former targets. So when a group was given permission to recover something, they helped them selves to whatever was laying about. As time progressed, things got tighter regarding recoverys and what was allowed to leave got more strict. So recoverers got pretty good at sneaking stuff out the gate. It's the sneaking stuff out the gate and fudging the rules that got EVERYBODY kicked out for good. So if you want to blame sombody, blame the recent culprits (USAM and the Doc bunch, for one...) for tottaly screwing the pooch. They are most of the reason the NHC, local base athorities and Pepsi-Cola clamped a lid on everything.
......it'll be incorperated into the China Lake Museum. Unfortunatly, most of it's missing parts are in a certain compound near Anza Borrego. Can't prove it....but I'm 99% certain about it. Between the Disney butchers, USAM, the CAF and a few others, what hulks are/were left got stripped of usable parts. Now, "back in the day" the powers that were, simply didn't care about a bunch of old former targets. So when a group was given permission to recover something, they helped them selves to whatever was laying about. As time progressed, things got tighter regarding recoverys and what was allowed to leave got more strict. So recoverers got pretty good at sneaking stuff out the gate. It's the sneaking stuff out the gate and fudging the rules that got EVERYBODY kicked out for good. So if you want to blame sombody, blame the recent culprits (USAM and the Doc bunch, for one...) for tottaly screwing the pooch. They are most of the reason the NHC, local base athorities and Pepsi-Cola clamped a lid on everything.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:52 pm
i'd say the last 2 replies before mine pretty much sums up the f'd up situation.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:55 pm
m50a1ontos wrote:............. Pepsi-Cola ................
Rob, sorry is that code or something , I haven't a clue what Pepsi has to do with China Lake.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:01 pm
"Pepsi-Cola" is our derogatory term for Naval Aviation Museum at Pensecola <ack, now I gotta wash my fingers after typing that>. I referr to the power mongers in charge when I say that. They have a fine collection and a dedicated group of folks working/volunteering there. It's their politics and backstabbing that sucks.
Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:27 pm
Thanks Rob, I understand now.
So far I have found B-29 44-69957 & an unidentified B-29 on google earth & windows live local at China Lake , there looks to be enough parts to get one complete aircraft out of the 2 (they are both incomplete) if only they could be got out of there
So far I have found B-29 44-69957 & an unidentified B-29 on google earth & windows live local at China Lake , there looks to be enough parts to get one complete aircraft out of the 2 (they are both incomplete) if only they could be got out of there
Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:37 pm
P.S. the registry lists 44-69957 as removed in '85 , this is clearly not the case as the pics of her on http://www.chinalakealumni.org/Relics-b29-2.htm are dated '95 & the G.E. pics. are not normally over 5 years old , so it looks like she at least survived into the 21st century
Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:23 am
Hi Guys,
Didn't the folks who brought Doc out of China Lake also bring out several other hulks of B-29's as well ? I seem to recall an article to that effect, as well as photo's of at least two hulks sitting in "yard" with Doc. But after a while there was a p*ssing contest over ownership and everything that wasn't Doc went back to the desert or wherever, whomever the powers that were at the time got them out of the hands of folks who had Doc ??
just curious,
Paul
Didn't the folks who brought Doc out of China Lake also bring out several other hulks of B-29's as well ? I seem to recall an article to that effect, as well as photo's of at least two hulks sitting in "yard" with Doc. But after a while there was a p*ssing contest over ownership and everything that wasn't Doc went back to the desert or wherever, whomever the powers that were at the time got them out of the hands of folks who had Doc ??
just curious,
Paul
Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:12 am
Tony Mazolini has/had leagle ownership of Doc...that much was established. What he and the "back then" museum DIDN't have, was even permission to remove the second B-29 (or any of the other aircraft they had) from where it was sitting on the Navy's range. The volunteers who did the deed were told otherwise by sombody at the top of USAM's food chain. When it was discovered that things were getting shady (right about the time DOC was being dismantled and they all found out Doc was never coming back like they were told) 99% of the volunteers bailed out (and got locked out, so bailing out was rather redundant at that point). Right after Doc left (along with the sole remaining "volunteer") the Navy came and took all their stuff back.
The whole deal uncovered the problem of just who was authorised to donate what to whom.....only a very few individuals in even fewer places are....and those two still fight about it to this day (NHC and the museum at Pensecola).
The whole deal uncovered the problem of just who was authorised to donate what to whom.....only a very few individuals in even fewer places are....and those two still fight about it to this day (NHC and the museum at Pensecola).
Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:48 pm
Another way to look at it is that it was a good thing they got what they could when they did. There is no telling what politics would or could happen in the future. I'm not condoning theft naturally, but if the powers that be didn't care, a bird in the hand...m50a1ontos wrote:Now, "back in the day" the powers that were, simply didn't care about a bunch of old former targets. So when a group was given permission to recover something, they helped them selves to whatever was laying about. As time progressed, things got tighter regarding recoverys and what was allowed to leave got more strict. So recoverers got pretty good at sneaking stuff out the gate. It's the sneaking stuff out the gate and fudging the rules that got EVERYBODY kicked out for good.