Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:04 pm
The F2G isn't being mentioned. Go back five posts and read. Tempest is tops for those that flew in harm's way on the deck.
Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:10 pm
Go back 4 posts and read your own.
Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:25 pm
Friend, I'm not quite sure what your point is, so I'll leave and let you explain. Have a good weekend, everyone!
Re: Best Prop Fighter II
Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:42 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:The ME 262 was dangerous and only had guns and speed.
But no props.
Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:16 am
The P-51H was a legitimate WWII production fighter, with 300 delivered before the end of WWII.
Wright Pat speed at 25,000 feet = 487TAS at 8500 pounds take off weight (no ammo minimum fuel), and 420mph at 35,000 feet with take off weight of 9,500 pounds (full amm and internal fuel)
as compared with 438mph (no ammo minimum fuel) for the 51D
As I recall the Mcr for the D was around .8 and for the H around .83 due to the thinner wing.
I do not have a clue what the max speed on the deck was for either in un-modified condition.
Regards,
Bill
Wright Pat speed at 25,000 feet = 487TAS at 8500 pounds take off weight (no ammo minimum fuel), and 420mph at 35,000 feet with take off weight of 9,500 pounds (full amm and internal fuel)
as compared with 438mph (no ammo minimum fuel) for the 51D
As I recall the Mcr for the D was around .8 and for the H around .83 due to the thinner wing.
I do not have a clue what the max speed on the deck was for either in un-modified condition.
Regards,
Bill
Prop Fighter
Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:23 pm
Dragondog, I was keeping the parameter of WWII combat fighters, not just production or development. To me that's the only way to really know what a plane did, not just it's potential. The Bearcat would be an obvious example. A flight test at lighter weight or without guns or underwing racks does show potential.Surprisingly, I think the P-51D was used in Korea instead of the H. Did you read the topic about checking out in a P-51 in 1970?
Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:40 pm
Bill, the D was used in Korea because there were more of them available than the H.
Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:48 pm
I'm not positive re: 51H in combat during WWII, but I recall that some ANG squadrons from the states flew them over and fought in them.
I do know that when my father had the 35FG before the Korean War (Jeff Ethell's father Erv was a squadron CO), the the Wing was equipped with D's - mostly -25 and 30's.
Bill, the 51H was more agile than the D weighing almost 800 pounds lighter. It would out turn and out climb the D and faster in level flight at all altitudes. It was in production and delivered before VE Day so why not factor it in? But it is your forum and you should make the rules.
Bill, you know some of the F7F's did make combat theatre in Pacific and a friend of mne that flew F4U's in the Crotch, and transitioned to the F7F before VE Day swore by them - said it was one helluva performer and could outfly the F4U. I do not know whether they ever fired a shot in anger - ditto the 51H.
I do know that when my father had the 35FG before the Korean War (Jeff Ethell's father Erv was a squadron CO), the the Wing was equipped with D's - mostly -25 and 30's.
Bill, the 51H was more agile than the D weighing almost 800 pounds lighter. It would out turn and out climb the D and faster in level flight at all altitudes. It was in production and delivered before VE Day so why not factor it in? But it is your forum and you should make the rules.
Bill, you know some of the F7F's did make combat theatre in Pacific and a friend of mne that flew F4U's in the Crotch, and transitioned to the F7F before VE Day swore by them - said it was one helluva performer and could outfly the F4U. I do not know whether they ever fired a shot in anger - ditto the 51H.
P-51
Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:18 pm
Dog, good points about the H. My 51 source says the H production began into 1945 and they began to replace the D "after peace was declared". I have not seen combat reports on the H. Also I wonderfor all the seeming potential, only the D was used in Korea, mainly at low altitude. I began this after someone wrote on, another site, If It ain't a Mustang, etc. I did it part serious, part humour and was away from home when I started. When I got home I found some of my books didn't answer all specifics, especialy on some of the later or rarer foreign stuff, K-64 etc. Let's say some of the late models did get brief action in the Pacific against a Japan already in retreat. How do you evaluate this against what a Hurricane faced from 1940 on, or a 51 the last years of the war in both theaters? We know the 38 was found wanting high over Europe, and did well in Pacific. I expect to finish this theme in the next week, then I suggest you do one where you focus on all the late and post war fighters. It is an interesting idea, do you include jets?
Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:35 pm
To your points and questions, Bill.
First the very fastest 51 was the 51G which had empty weight of 5749 and Gross of 7858 pounds - 498mph, 0-20,000 in 3.85 about half time of the D.
The H delivered in march 1945 with 221 delivered by July 20 and 370 by VJ Day on 9/2 (day before I was born).
I did some more checking. While I was right about ANG being equipped with the newer H and both the 56th and 57FG - apparently none were deployed in Korea. Interestingly enough one of the 51D-25 flown by Clay Kinnard as Co of the 355th when my father was exec during WWII - was shot down in Korea in 1952. a two war 51D as many were.
Ok I have a heavy lean toward the 51 as the 'best' when you focus on a.) strategic impact and b.) importance to USAAF Bombing campaign. I won't say it is the best dog fighter. I will say that it is a formidable opponent to any ship you put up - and THE best if the other guy has to fly 400 miles to find you.
Next, the 51 destroyed nearly as many a/c - air and ground as the P-38 and P-47 combined in Europe despite showing up a year to 18 months after they started combat ops..
To me there is no comparison of the 51 in 1943 versus the Hurricane in 1940.The Hurricane was outclassed by the Me 109 and the Macchia 202 and the Zero in almost every combat scenario - the Spits flew top cover for the Hurri's while the Hurricanes attacked the bombers.
Some of the later model JNAF and Army fighters were formidable including the Ki 84 and the Raiden - but like fighting a Spit you stay out of the horizontal and depend on your speed and high altitude advantages.
The 47M got speed and range at the end but a total dog in the horizontal or positive vertical at any altitude. Spit still didn'y have legs to execute far from home - ditto all the late model F4U's, Ta 152's, 109D's, Tempests and even F8U's
The 51H would have been very formidable against the 190D, the Ta 152 and the Spit and F8F - but still would not initial climb and/or turn with a Spit or F8F or out roll a 190.. but could everything else better and do it 400-600 miles from home. The 51G might have been able to out climb and out turn all of them - I think the initial climb rate was 4600ft/min! it would have been close to F8F and Spit if not better even in that domain.
That was my thesis earlier on picking the best - AWESOME Footprint with great performance high to low in the 'toe area'. What more can you ask if you are Offensive minded?
Greunhagen's Mustang and Wagner's Mustang Designer are two great references re: development and stats on the 51.
First the very fastest 51 was the 51G which had empty weight of 5749 and Gross of 7858 pounds - 498mph, 0-20,000 in 3.85 about half time of the D.
The H delivered in march 1945 with 221 delivered by July 20 and 370 by VJ Day on 9/2 (day before I was born).
I did some more checking. While I was right about ANG being equipped with the newer H and both the 56th and 57FG - apparently none were deployed in Korea. Interestingly enough one of the 51D-25 flown by Clay Kinnard as Co of the 355th when my father was exec during WWII - was shot down in Korea in 1952. a two war 51D as many were.
Ok I have a heavy lean toward the 51 as the 'best' when you focus on a.) strategic impact and b.) importance to USAAF Bombing campaign. I won't say it is the best dog fighter. I will say that it is a formidable opponent to any ship you put up - and THE best if the other guy has to fly 400 miles to find you.
Next, the 51 destroyed nearly as many a/c - air and ground as the P-38 and P-47 combined in Europe despite showing up a year to 18 months after they started combat ops..
To me there is no comparison of the 51 in 1943 versus the Hurricane in 1940.The Hurricane was outclassed by the Me 109 and the Macchia 202 and the Zero in almost every combat scenario - the Spits flew top cover for the Hurri's while the Hurricanes attacked the bombers.
Some of the later model JNAF and Army fighters were formidable including the Ki 84 and the Raiden - but like fighting a Spit you stay out of the horizontal and depend on your speed and high altitude advantages.
The 47M got speed and range at the end but a total dog in the horizontal or positive vertical at any altitude. Spit still didn'y have legs to execute far from home - ditto all the late model F4U's, Ta 152's, 109D's, Tempests and even F8U's
The 51H would have been very formidable against the 190D, the Ta 152 and the Spit and F8F - but still would not initial climb and/or turn with a Spit or F8F or out roll a 190.. but could everything else better and do it 400-600 miles from home. The 51G might have been able to out climb and out turn all of them - I think the initial climb rate was 4600ft/min! it would have been close to F8F and Spit if not better even in that domain.
That was my thesis earlier on picking the best - AWESOME Footprint with great performance high to low in the 'toe area'. What more can you ask if you are Offensive minded?
Greunhagen's Mustang and Wagner's Mustang Designer are two great references re: development and stats on the 51.
Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:36 pm
Bill on Post war you have to fucus on jets because simply except for long range ops the piston engine fighter was obsolete in 1944 when the 262 stuck it's ugly nose into the air combat world
You start with the Meteor and the P-80 then take another step and talk about MiG 15/17 and F-86 and F9F and Hawker Hunter, then you sliter into the next evolution and hit the F-100 and MiG 19 and then F4 and MiG 23 and Mirage. Still have to frame the mission to start the discussion - if air supremacy is the top of the pyramid the above a/c and the approximate times is where you start the opinions flowing.
When you get to the Seventies you need to take a detour and talk abou John Boyd and his vast influence on USAF and USN fighter design Doctrine to see how he led us out of the darkness of F4, F101 and F 104 and F-105 and F-14 as air fighters over the target into the world of F-16/F-15 and F-18 and now F-22. He may have been a jerk and a bull headed maverick personally but he was a great stick guy and F**&^%g brilliant in his treatment of Energy in ACM - when the PhD's and the flag officers didn't have a clue - just my personal opinion
Regards,
Bill
You start with the Meteor and the P-80 then take another step and talk about MiG 15/17 and F-86 and F9F and Hawker Hunter, then you sliter into the next evolution and hit the F-100 and MiG 19 and then F4 and MiG 23 and Mirage. Still have to frame the mission to start the discussion - if air supremacy is the top of the pyramid the above a/c and the approximate times is where you start the opinions flowing.
When you get to the Seventies you need to take a detour and talk abou John Boyd and his vast influence on USAF and USN fighter design Doctrine to see how he led us out of the darkness of F4, F101 and F 104 and F-105 and F-14 as air fighters over the target into the world of F-16/F-15 and F-18 and now F-22. He may have been a jerk and a bull headed maverick personally but he was a great stick guy and F**&^%g brilliant in his treatment of Energy in ACM - when the PhD's and the flag officers didn't have a clue - just my personal opinion
Regards,
Bill
Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:50 pm
Many years ago I asked my uncle a ret. Usaf 3 war pilot that flew 38s', 51s', and 47s in the big one which one was his favorite. No scientific stuff just which he liked best. He replied tat the 51 was his favorite all around, but and this is a big but if someone was shooting at you he would take the 47 any day. Different and interesting perspective from someone who should know far better than any of us.
Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:07 pm
It is a rare fighter pilot who waould answer the question "if soemone was shooting at you which would you pick - the one that could take the most punishment or the one which could win in almost every fight" and pick the 47.
I knew a lot of guys in the 354FG who flew both - like Eagleston and Weldon and Howard - and they simply said 51, even though it was more vulnerable to a glycol line hit when they were in the weeds. The 354th BEGGED to get 51's back after they were banished to 9th AF "standard P-47" in November 1944 despite their assignment to primary ground support. They all loved getting back to the 51 in March 1945.
The 9th AF transitioned to the 51 immediately after the war ended before the 47's were retired.
The 4th FG pilots hated the Jug in air to air (relative to 51) against the Fw 190 and Me 109. Ditto the 355th and the 352nd FG's
Even Hub Zemke, when he took over as CO of the 479th Fg liked the 51 better than the 47 - which he fought with so succesfully with the 56FG. Ironically, who knows if the Jug would have survived the thunderstorm which destroyed Zemke's 51 in November 44.??
All the 8th AF groups that transitioned from 47's to 51's had an immediate and lasting effect to their air to air and overall scores... every single one - ditto the 12th and 15th AF. Ditto the ones that went from 38's to 51's sucjh as 20th, 55th and 479th Fg.
If you want to postulate 'the best' based on which could tangle with the enemy's best at maximum range of the USAAF bombers and perform ground support - only the 38 and the 51 are even in the discussion because the 47's simply didn't have the range to take 24's and 17's to Poznan for example or make the England to Russia Shuttle missions.
I am NOT denigrating the P-47 because it made huge contributions, particularly in 1943 through early 1944- and if it had been in Korea a lot fewer USAF Fighter Pilots would have been lost - but neither would have been effective in air superiority against the Mig...
Simply stated - in the Strategic air battles over Europe, fighting against the Luftwaffe - few fighter pilots that flew both the 51 and the 47 would have picked the 47.. while many that fought at low altitude and the major hazard was flak - the 47 would bring you home when the 51 would go down... but if they were tasked to do both - it was the 51 as a solid preference.
Remember - the 47 flew combat for twice as long, flew nearly 50% more sorties than the 51 but scored approximately 3,100 air and 3,000 ground scores against the Luftwaffe while the 51 scored 4800 in the air and 4100 on the ground. The 51's almost equalled the combined results of both the P-38 and P-47 agaianst the Luftwaffe even though both were in combat 18 months earlier.
In the case of my father's group - they were roughly 1:1 against the Germans in P-47's while they scored 7.7:1 in the 51's. The flip side is that they lost the second highest number to flak while strafing (to the 4th FG) for a 4:1 ratio and double the number of pilots lost while strafing than by air.
This discussion is like talking to an F-105 driver versus an F4 driver in VietNam or an A-10 versus F-16. If you ask the hog Driver which airplane he wants to fly tank busting versus which against MiG's or Su's you will get two different answers.
The 47 was an Excellent Fighter - the 51 was the most IMPORTANT Fighter.
Strictly my opinion - your turn!
Regards,
Bill
I knew a lot of guys in the 354FG who flew both - like Eagleston and Weldon and Howard - and they simply said 51, even though it was more vulnerable to a glycol line hit when they were in the weeds. The 354th BEGGED to get 51's back after they were banished to 9th AF "standard P-47" in November 1944 despite their assignment to primary ground support. They all loved getting back to the 51 in March 1945.
The 9th AF transitioned to the 51 immediately after the war ended before the 47's were retired.
The 4th FG pilots hated the Jug in air to air (relative to 51) against the Fw 190 and Me 109. Ditto the 355th and the 352nd FG's
Even Hub Zemke, when he took over as CO of the 479th Fg liked the 51 better than the 47 - which he fought with so succesfully with the 56FG. Ironically, who knows if the Jug would have survived the thunderstorm which destroyed Zemke's 51 in November 44.??
All the 8th AF groups that transitioned from 47's to 51's had an immediate and lasting effect to their air to air and overall scores... every single one - ditto the 12th and 15th AF. Ditto the ones that went from 38's to 51's sucjh as 20th, 55th and 479th Fg.
If you want to postulate 'the best' based on which could tangle with the enemy's best at maximum range of the USAAF bombers and perform ground support - only the 38 and the 51 are even in the discussion because the 47's simply didn't have the range to take 24's and 17's to Poznan for example or make the England to Russia Shuttle missions.
I am NOT denigrating the P-47 because it made huge contributions, particularly in 1943 through early 1944- and if it had been in Korea a lot fewer USAF Fighter Pilots would have been lost - but neither would have been effective in air superiority against the Mig...
Simply stated - in the Strategic air battles over Europe, fighting against the Luftwaffe - few fighter pilots that flew both the 51 and the 47 would have picked the 47.. while many that fought at low altitude and the major hazard was flak - the 47 would bring you home when the 51 would go down... but if they were tasked to do both - it was the 51 as a solid preference.
Remember - the 47 flew combat for twice as long, flew nearly 50% more sorties than the 51 but scored approximately 3,100 air and 3,000 ground scores against the Luftwaffe while the 51 scored 4800 in the air and 4100 on the ground. The 51's almost equalled the combined results of both the P-38 and P-47 agaianst the Luftwaffe even though both were in combat 18 months earlier.
In the case of my father's group - they were roughly 1:1 against the Germans in P-47's while they scored 7.7:1 in the 51's. The flip side is that they lost the second highest number to flak while strafing (to the 4th FG) for a 4:1 ratio and double the number of pilots lost while strafing than by air.
This discussion is like talking to an F-105 driver versus an F4 driver in VietNam or an A-10 versus F-16. If you ask the hog Driver which airplane he wants to fly tank busting versus which against MiG's or Su's you will get two different answers.
The 47 was an Excellent Fighter - the 51 was the most IMPORTANT Fighter.
Strictly my opinion - your turn!
Regards,
Bill
Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:54 am
I am sure he was talking about the amount of punishment the Jug would take and still get you home from groundfire or an enemy plane. I would think that is the most important to someone in that position.
You brought up an interesting question. Never asked him about suck and blow planes. He commanded a 105 outfight in Vietnam.
You brought up an interesting question. Never asked him about suck and blow planes. He commanded a 105 outfight in Vietnam.
Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:45 am
I wonder which 105 outfit? One of my father's wingmen in the 355th FG during WWII, Bob White, was vice to Bud Anderson who had the 355TFW in the 66-67 timeframe. White was one of the X-15 jocks that set altitude and speed recoreds
He retired as either a Major or Lieutenant General and follwing retirement from USAF got his doctorate at Heidelburg close to where he was shot down by flak (in a P51C) strafing an airfield - lol - full circle to the discussion
My father did not fly in Vietnam but had about 500 hours in the ship. It was not well loved in peacetime and deserved the nickname Hog long before the A-10 - but a lot of guys who flew Route Pack 6 loved 'em. I've heard it claimed that on egress, on AB, nothing could catch them from behind including the F4C's flying escort...It had a serious point of vulneability to the golden B-B, namely the Stab-Aug primary and back up sytems that were side by side - usually a hit on one took out #2 and it was time to go!
Until late 1967 or 68 the 105 had the most MiG kills (and losses to MiG's) because they had the most opportunity and had the internal 20mm.
He retired as either a Major or Lieutenant General and follwing retirement from USAF got his doctorate at Heidelburg close to where he was shot down by flak (in a P51C) strafing an airfield - lol - full circle to the discussion
My father did not fly in Vietnam but had about 500 hours in the ship. It was not well loved in peacetime and deserved the nickname Hog long before the A-10 - but a lot of guys who flew Route Pack 6 loved 'em. I've heard it claimed that on egress, on AB, nothing could catch them from behind including the F4C's flying escort...It had a serious point of vulneability to the golden B-B, namely the Stab-Aug primary and back up sytems that were side by side - usually a hit on one took out #2 and it was time to go!
Until late 1967 or 68 the 105 had the most MiG kills (and losses to MiG's) because they had the most opportunity and had the internal 20mm.