Photo Flight Goes Bad

corsair166b · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:01 pm

This would be a good time to point out the recent thread on the Air Classics/CWH Lancaster crew dispute where the CWH don't want the Air Classics gang to join up for a photo flight without having BRIEFED it properly first...seems like common sense to me to brief it all ahead of time and if one does'nt stick with the brief, break the mission off...

I have flown lots of photo missions over 16 years of airshows and while I have missed out on some great photo missions by missing a briefing, I always understood WHY I could'nt join in at the last minute with my pilot....the idea is to get images and get the planes and pilots back safe....NOT to get anyone killed.

Mark

f4phan · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:02 pm

Hasn't there been a few Aerobatic accident's lately as well ? Nancy Lynn and some Doctor from Fl ?

Broken-Wrench · **Joined:** Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm **Posts:** 1197

The military has aleast a couple of midairs a year. Heck even the Thundbirds had a midair this year. and knocked off a missle rail.

AIRIC · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:03 pm

All I know is everyone involved lost their life doing what they love. I know my wife and I have thought several times about the dangers of formation flying and doing A2A work and we both feel if you surround yourself with qualified people and take all the precautions it is not any more dangerous then heading down your local highway. I love my A2A work and this sure hits close to home. It sounds like the right people were there but something just went wrong. Next Tuesday, I will head out on my next A2A adventure and I can’t wait.

Happy Landings,

Eric

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:43 pm

Randy,
I was not pointing at you, but when anyone says to open a dialogue, I see it as a opening to more regulations and loss of freedoms. I will guarentee you that if you start talking with the feds after something like this happens, the aviation community will be giving something up, not the other way around. The rules are there, they work, leave them alone.

Here are the rules:

FAR 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight

This is one reason the F.A.S.T. program was started, to head off the feds writting rules for formation flying at airshows.

They may have had a brief, and when the MiG had a problem, the piper did something that probally not briefed and things went wrong.

I heard on the news that the tail was found seperated from the piper, sounds like jet blast damage to me.

Tim Savage · **Joined:** Mon May 03, 2004 8:26 pm **Posts:** 630

This is obviously something that hits close to home for those of us at Warbird Digest. We fly at least a couple of photo missions a month. While I am not a photographer, I am generally one of the pilots of the photo plane. Since we sold the B-25 we use the Baron most of the time, which is a great photo platform. We make it a point to have two qualified pilots in the airplane when we do these shoots. One to fly the airplane and another to look out for traffic and keep an eye on the subject airplane. Since the door is on the right and the PIC is on the left in the Baron, he generally cannot see the subject airplane well. This is why crew coordination is critical. In my mind it is also important that the two of us who generally fly these missions are formation qualified with FAST and also fly warbirds so we have an idea of the performance envelope of the subject airplane and what we can expect.

This was a tragic accident. Unfortunately, similar accidents have plagued photo missions for years. In the early 1980s the editor of FlyPast was also lost in a similar incident.

We are very careful about our briefing and who we will fly with. A couple of weeks ago I actually rode with in an airplane for a photomission and flew the formation from the backseat of the subject airplane because the owner was not formation qualified. We just are not going to put ourselves or our photographers in the position of getting hurt. Even with all the precautions we have taken, there have been some close calls.

AIRIC will probably echo this, but we always explain to our subjects that they don't need to be right on top of us. If they aren't comfortable we want them to stay where they are comfortable and we will bring them in with the lens. I have had the opportunity to work with some of the greatest photographers in this business and we are always able to get good results even if the subject hangs back. You just have to have the right equipment and the skill with photographer.

I have noticed a phenomenon that I find troubling. I have observed on signficant number of occassions photographers that are so excited to get the opportunity to do an air to air shoot that they don't ask anything about the qualifications of the photo ship pilot or the subject pilot. Combine this with their inexperience in briefing such a flight and it is a recipe for disaster.

This is something we need to continue to discuss within the confines of the warbird movement. These accidents are high-profile and we need to do all that we can to avoid them in the future. The FAA is already in the process of regulating airshow formation flying, and we will see that in the regs within a few years. Fortunately, in this case they are working with FAST to develop these regs, but as Matt G indicates, that isn't always the case.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:20 am

here is a photo of the piper :
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=471928

happymeal · **Joined:** Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:00 am **Posts:** 215

Agree 100% with you Tim. But you know that already.

skymstr02 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:56 am

Cheyenne Down In Arizona

Mid-Air With MiG-21 On Photo Flight Believed Not The Cause
A twin-engine Piper Cheyennne on a photo mission with a MiG-21 went down near Prescott, AZ early Wednesday afternoon, killing a confirmed five and possibly six people. While early reports suggested there was a mid-air collision, it appears now that the Cheyenne did not clip the Mig and crashed for undetermined reasons.

The two aircraft took off from Prescott airport about 60 miles north of Phoenix to photograph the Soviet-designed Mig before it flew on to an airshow, said Ian Gregor, an FAA spokesman.

He explained to the Associated Press that Mig pilot, Bob Ray, told investigators he thought he had a problem with his landing gear door about 20 minutes into the flight. He asked the Cheyenne's pilot to inspect the gear door, and the Cheyenne flew underneath but never appeared on the other side.

The Mig pilot then called Air Traffic Control to report a possible collision at 8,900 feet.

The FAA spokesman said a cursory inspection on the ground showed no sign of damage to the fighter.

Ray has flown his MiG-21 for about two years after a career as a Naval Aviator and claimed that he was not performing any unusual maneuvers before the accident. He was forced to cancel his plans to fly in the Goodyear Balloon and Air Spectacular because of the investigation the AP reports.

Prescott tower controllers had earlier warned the Cheyenne’s pilot of vapor trailing from his right engine on departure. They say the pilot responded he felt it wasn't a problem.

A large column of smoke from the fire aided search crews in locating the Cheyenne’s wreckage 16 miles northwest of Prescott. "The plane was completely burned up," said John Ginn, fire district chief for Chino Valley north of Prescott. "The only thing left was a small section of tail and two engines. There was very little discernible" he told the AP.

Scott Reed, a spokesman for the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office, said the medical examiner's office will determine exactly who and how many were on the plane. It is possible there was a sixth person on board.

"It's fair to say that we have an idea who may have been on the plane, but we can't release names until we have positive identification," he said.

The FAA and the NTSB are on the scene and are investigating the accident.

FMI: www.ntsb.gov

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

My formation instructer flies with the Red Baron team.

The EAA and other folks (NATA, Bird Dog Assoc.)have put together the FAST program to safely teach formation flying.

Nathan · **Posted:** Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:49 am

Quote:

Why ? it is all ready covered in FARs. The military is not the only ones that know how to fly formation. Look at the T-6s at Oshkosh, I don't see the military putting up 60+ planes in 1 tight formation. Every pilot in the Oshkosh T-6 formations I took part in were CIVILIAN, and alot of them had no military training.

I also agree with you Matt. I am not sure why some WIX'ERs are worked up over this. It was an accidant and it doesn't always mean the pilot was at fault. Accidants happen.......if accusations keep happening and stronger rules/laws are enforced, I forsee that in the future there will be less pilots around. Things are just becoming too hard for people to become pilots. And thats not fare considering there are a lot of people out there(like me) want to become future pilots.

Cheers,
Nate

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:28 am

http://prescottdailycourier.com/main.as ... M=25379.42

Quote:

Investigators release names of plane crash victims

By MIRSADA BURIC
The Daily Courier

PRESCOTT Of five people killed in Wednesday's plane crash, only three were pilots, but all of them shared a passion for planes and flying.

William "Billy" Friedman, 40, Donald Morris, 63, Andy Boquet, 62, and Joshua Vaughan, 37, all Prescott residents, and Warren Parkes, 39, of Anthem, died when a twin-engine, turbo-prop Piper Cheyenne crashed on a flight to take pictures of a MiG-21, about 16 miles north of the Prescott airport.

"Due to the circumstances of this type of accident, positive identification is often difficult and lengthy," a Yavapai County Sheriff's Office press release said. "Identification has been made through the statement of witnesses, identifying characteristics of the airplane and interviews of airport personnel."

Morris and Boquet each had a life-long passion for aviation that started with the United States Air Force and Marine Corps respectively and later continued with Southwest Airlines. Morris completed a 26-year career with the airline and Boquet retired in 2004 after 23 years of commercial flying.

Boquet's son, Zac, said that being long time friends, Morris and Boquet also enjoyed rafting together. Zac credited his dad for becoming a pilot himself.

"He enjoyed flying, but he always talked about other people's achievements," Zac said.

Karen Despain, former managing editor of The Daily Courier and a friend of the Morris family, said Morris was a meticulous pilot and a wonderful person. Until recently, Despain said, he was involved in the Dream Project at the Yavapai County Juvenile Detention Center.

Friedman was a private pilot and the captain of the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office Air Group a volunteer group that helps out with search-and-rescue missions, community events, smoke patrols and other law enforcement activities.

"His dedication to the Sheriff's Office and the citizens of Yavapai County will be greatly missed by all who knew him," a YCSO press release says.

Parkes and Vaughan loved photography, particularly taking pictures of vintage planes Russian MiG 17s, T-6 Texans, and T-28 Trojan in flight. Along with Friedman, they were instrumental in organizing an annual air show at the Prescott airport. Parkes, and Vaughan's pictures of military planes decorate the 2006 air show brochure.

Parkes' fascination with planes that became famous during military conflicts was obvious during a September radio interview. In his mind those planes were "the only reason to have an air show."

Meanwhile, federal authorities said that they recovered a piece of the Piper's tail about a half mile from the crash scene, which was in a remote area near Perkinsville Ranch.

"They were planning on moving the wreckage later today (Friday) to a facility in Phoenix," said Paul Schalmm, a National Transportation Safety Board spokesman. "In addition to documenting the accident scene Š they will further examine the wreckage and they will gather up any communications from the aircraft or radar data and weather data."

Schalmm said they will also talk to the MiG pilot and the passenger, who returned to the Prescott airport safely after the Piper crashed.

Both planes left the airport at 1:30 p.m. on Wednesday with the goal for occupants in the Piper to take pictures of the MiG in fight.

Schalmm said the investigators also will check each pilot's training and experience and the service and maintenance records of the two aircrafts.

A preliminary report with initial facts may be available 10 days after the crash, but a more detailed report could take between five months and a year depending on the complexity of the accident and investigators' case load.

Between 1,700 and 1,800 small-plane accidents occur across the country each year, Schalmm said.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:38 pm

Randy, perhaps your idea of a dialog of formation flying has merit and you should start it as a new topic in a couple of days if the objective is to promote safety. What Matt said also has some truth. Finally everyone, I think we need to keep sight of is that this is a tragic loss of 5 people. It's easier on me personally since I did not know them, but they were someone's Father or Husband or Brother or Son, and it seems all were a long time part of our fraternity of aviation enthusiasts.

T33driver · **Posted:** Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:42 am

Okay, Matt...unbunch your panties. At no time did I make the claim that civilians weren't qualified to fly formation, nor did I make the claim that the military had the market cornered on being able to fly formation. Nowhere did I suggest that more regulation was needed. YOU insinuated that based on one sentence I wrote -- a sentence where I suggested it was a ripe opportunity to have a dialogue.

I agree with you -- there's no need for more laws or regulation.

When I said "dialogue about safety", I meant pilots talking to other pilots about doing things smartly. About areas where we can do it more professionally.

I'm sorry if I represent "the man" that's "keeping the civilian pilot down"...if you think that, you need to remove that iceberg-sized chip off your shoulder that caused you to react so defensively to my post.[/quote]

Randy you're right on. In the USAF world when there's a close call, incident, or accident, it's debriefed and dissected so the pilots or perhaps the maintainers don't repeat mistakes and prevent future loss of life and airframes. If the Phoenix accident turns out to be caused by pilot error, it is beneficial to have a dialogue over it so the rest of us can learn from mistakes if any were made. Unless you steal a copy of the Blue Four News USAF safety magazine from the sh*tter in a flying squadron, you're llikely not going to be privy to USAF accident reports since they're for official use only...every accident involving an airshow, formation and/or warbird is tragic, but an opportunity that must be seized for the operators in those environments to learn and enhance the safety of their future operations. It ain't about civvy vs military pilots being better than the other.

David J Burke · **Joined:** Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 189

Tim - I wish to clarify a detail . Mike Twite the then editor of FlyPast was lost in the crash of a Varsity at Marchington along with ten other people.
The purpose of the flight was to position the aircraft to Liverpool airport for a display. During the course of the flight some air to air work was carried out with a Cessna for the magazine.
At no stage was the air to air sortie a factor in the accident - the Varsity crashed trying to make an emergency landing after engine failure.
Indeed pictures taken from the Cessna were used in the inquiry.
The other notable incident in the 1980's was the loss of Steven Piercey from Propliner magazine and several others at Hanover during an air to air sortie.

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