What is the biggest limiting factor in getting

[engguy]

These old planes back in the air?

I know of one. And I have a solution. And will need advice and help.

Other than $, what is the major one?

[Mudge]

IMHO......$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Mudge the pauper

[mennie]

Other than $, what is the major one?

Personally, I can't think of any other?

[retroaviation]

It's all a matter of cubic dollars.

[Scott Rose]

With enough money anything is possible. The biggest single problem in general, as I see it, is engines. This is less of a problem for the more common types like the Mustang, Spitfire and B-25. Your problem increases dramatically depending on nationality of design. U.S. stuff is more common followed by British stuff and then it nose-dives from there. I'd say it was something like this.

U.S.
British
German
Russian
Japanese
French
Everything Else

And like I said, as you go down the list the engine is a bigger and bigger problem.

[T33driver]

These old planes back in the air?

I know of one. And I have a solution. And will need advice and help.

Other than $, what is the major one?

Most restorations end up costing wayyy more than you planned...hell, an annual maintenance inspection can go outta sight. My buddies who are importing T-33s from Canada that are in "flying stored" condition shouldn't be shocked if the condition/licensing inspection runs them $50,000. I'm betting it won't, but they better be prepared to spend that and take it like a man.

[hang the expense]

Cubic money and a scatload of enthusasiom.More than most people have.Lets see what else. You better be single and if not you will be. No kids grown or otherwise.They wont ever quit costing cubic money and I almost forgot. Start when you are 15 years old so when yer done you can still enjoy it.

[engguy]

"The biggest single problem in general, as I see it, is engines."

That is the answer I was looking for.
When I get more time I will elaborate.

[bdk]

These old planes back in the air?

In my case it is time!

[retroaviation]

Yeah, I was going to ammend my earlier post of "cubic dollars" to also include time and effort. There are many items that simply take time. A good example is the re-engine project on FIFI. Although we've been pledged $2 Million to start the project, it will still take at least a couple of years before it flies again. This is a case (and it often times is this way) that you can't start something without the big bucks. However, when you get the money, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're done.

So maybe the best way to put it is.......Time AND money.

engguy...I am curious to see what your solution is to all of this. Maybe I won't have to work as hard to keep these airplanes going and BDK will not need so much time to finish his T-6.

Gary

[Mark V]

These old planes

Too general a question. If you are talking about Spitfires or Mustangs - the answer is $$$ (or £££) and time. Money is an 'also ran' if you are talking Westland Whirlwind or P-61, although it always helps!

[JimH]

marriage

[krlang]

marriage

LOL,

Aviation
Induced
Divorce
Syndrome

[engguy]

I need to lead up to why I started this thread.

Why is the engine factor so difficult?

I would like to see some good reasons why.
We already know the $ thing. And why is that?

And why would you need 2 million dollars for that retrofit on FiFi?
I'm really curious about that one.
And what are you doing right now to forward that retro deal?
Like what is happening to the hardware as we speak?

I also would like to know if there is anyone on here that worked on these old recips in the military back in the 50's and early 60's. Just had some questions to ask you.

I am impressed with this aviation related board lots of good folks here.
Thank you for putting up with me.

[retroaviation]

Well, actually, we are estimating it to cost $3 Million for FIFI's engine conversion, but that is only an estimate. Could be more, could be less. I'm not the person to discuss all of the finances regarding our project, nor is this the venue for it. However, I can touch on some of the more known expenses that we will face if that helps you.

Why is it that expensive? Well, if you figure it'll take at least $150,000.00 per engine to overhaul, times 5 engines to start with (one for a spare), you've already spent $750,000.00. That's not including the cost of the engine cores, which fortunately, we already have. Typically, engine cores (for these bigger round engines) run from the $5,000-$15,000 range, depending on condition and type. Again, that figure could be more, could be less.

But with that being said, our original B-29 engines that we're replacing were even more expensive to overhaul than the ones we're planning to put on it. Our last overhaul came from what we thought was an upstanding overhaul shop in the Warbird community. They charged us $175,00.00 for one engine.....and that was with our own parts! To make up for it, our previously overhauled engine from them (which was a bargain at $145,000.00), had only 138 hours on it total time and only 6.6 hours out of their facility from major warranty work before it became full of metal. They informed us, in writing, that they will no longer honor their warranties on their engines they build for us. Needless to say, we've made the decision not to take anymore engines back to them.

I can also tell you that after speaking with the President of another organization who is trying to get a B-29 flying, they spent what I would consider a LARGE sum of money with this same overhaul facility just to tear down and inspect two of their engines.

The point is, this just touches the surface as to the financial strain these engines can be on a Warbird operator. In some ways, we're fortunate that we operate big, four engined bombers because if one of our engines craters itself, then we can likely have no problem landing safely. However, the downside to that is that we have at least four times the expense when it comes to engine overhauls, cylinders, and maintenance.

And it's not only the engines that are an issue in the Warbird world. Airframe problems can get expensive too. We just had new wing spars fabricated for our B-29, along with 1,600 feet of stringer material. At $90/per foot (retail) just for the stringers, you do the math. Those other B-29 guys are feeling the same pain we are with airframe issues and I bet you will find that nearly any of the great folks who spend huge amounts of money on restoring their personal Warbirds can back me up on this too.

I'm sorry for the rant here, but you asked.

I'm getting depressed now. I think I'll get back out to work on fabricating parts for the B-24.

Gary