Memphis Belle Didn't Fly 25 Missions First
Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:06 pm
Since someone mentioned the Belle in the earlier thread. I thought
I'd point out that the first B-17 to complete 25 missions over Europe was actually the 303rd BG's "Hell's Angels" s/n 41-24527. She completed her 25th on May 13, 1943 6 full days before the Belle's 25th on May 19. The difference was that the 91st BG was getting all the press and the Belle was sent home for her war bound tour. The Hell's Angels completed 48 missions and didn't return stateside until Jan 1944. Another rarely know tidbit was that the Bell's crew that came home was a make-up crew many of whom didn't fly all there missions in her. The original left right waist gunner SSgt Scott Miller who flew on 15 of the 25 mission got no recognition. The Belle also has 2 other top turret gunners.
Has a side note the 303rd Bg's Knock Out Dropper was the first to complete both 50 and 100 missions over Europe.
Not revising history just reporting it a little more accurately.
BTW George Welch was the first to break the sound barrier in case you didn't know.
I'd point out that the first B-17 to complete 25 missions over Europe was actually the 303rd BG's "Hell's Angels" s/n 41-24527. She completed her 25th on May 13, 1943 6 full days before the Belle's 25th on May 19. The difference was that the 91st BG was getting all the press and the Belle was sent home for her war bound tour. The Hell's Angels completed 48 missions and didn't return stateside until Jan 1944. Another rarely know tidbit was that the Bell's crew that came home was a make-up crew many of whom didn't fly all there missions in her. The original left right waist gunner SSgt Scott Miller who flew on 15 of the 25 mission got no recognition. The Belle also has 2 other top turret gunners.
Has a side note the 303rd Bg's Knock Out Dropper was the first to complete both 50 and 100 missions over Europe.
Not revising history just reporting it a little more accurately.
BTW George Welch was the first to break the sound barrier in case you didn't know.
Re: Memphis Belle Didn't Fly 25 Missions First
Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:16 pm
Jack Cook wrote:BTW George Welch was the first to break the sound barrier in case you didn't know.
And what's more, he did it in a proper aeroplane.
Re: Memphis Belle Didn't Fly 25 Missions First
Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:22 pm
Jack Cook wrote:Since someone mentioned the Belle in the earlier thread. I thought
BTW George Welch was the first to break the sound barrier in case you didn't know.
Concerning the great pilot, George Welch, was his first breaking the sound barrier flight in "level flight" or was it in a "slight dive." I understand that the P-86/F-86 Sabre could break the sound barrier in a slight dive, but not in level flight....
Just wondering.
Jim C.
Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:31 pm
Oh no!
Jack, are you saying that an officailly sanctioned, Government backed, motion picture didn't tell the truth to the American Public?!
WOW!
I just don't know what to say!
You just can't trust anybody these days...or in days past!
Actually, too many people think the original "Memphis Belle" documentary is absolute fact. They forget the wartime need for propaganda and how it help to persuade the public.
The "Memphis Belle" and it's "final crew" are certainly part of aviation history, but they must be taken in context with what actually is historically true.
Jim Verinis lived the next town over from me and we spoke serveral times about the crew's actual records. I was fortunate to even have dinner once with Jim and Bob Morgan.
I hope people don't blame them for the mis-information for all these years, they were just doing their jobs.
Blue skies,
Jerry
Jack, are you saying that an officailly sanctioned, Government backed, motion picture didn't tell the truth to the American Public?!
WOW!
I just don't know what to say!
You just can't trust anybody these days...or in days past!
Actually, too many people think the original "Memphis Belle" documentary is absolute fact. They forget the wartime need for propaganda and how it help to persuade the public.
The "Memphis Belle" and it's "final crew" are certainly part of aviation history, but they must be taken in context with what actually is historically true.
Jim Verinis lived the next town over from me and we spoke serveral times about the crew's actual records. I was fortunate to even have dinner once with Jim and Bob Morgan.
I hope people don't blame them for the mis-information for all these years, they were just doing their jobs.
Blue skies,
Jerry
Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:18 pm
Jack,
What you say is as true as it gets. Part of why "Heck's" Angels didn't come home first is that there was being PC even back in the 40's. There is no way that they would allow a plane with that name to even be brought home first today.
Bob
What you say is as true as it gets. Part of why "Heck's" Angels didn't come home first is that there was being PC even back in the 40's. There is no way that they would allow a plane with that name to even be brought home first today.
Bob
Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:25 pm
But if I remember correctly, wasn't the Belle's crew (or at least most of 'em) the first crew to make 25? I know there were various airmen that flew over the span, and ithink that there may have even been one mission the crew flew without the Belle as she was still being repaired.
Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:19 pm
Its a great story, on one hand you have Capt. Morgan surviving 25 missions, bringing "his crew" back home. He also was reunited his girlfriend "the Memphis Belle". Press ate that story up and the rest is history.
On the other hand you have the B-17 "He@@s Angels" that would go on to inspire a rogue motorcycle group. Of course they didn't know this at the time but nobody wanted to be portrayed as "He@@s Angels" in the middle of a war. There was the famous German propoganda piece that featured a captured crew wearing jackets painted with the monicker "Murder Incorporated". They paraded them around as prime examples of the American attitude toward the war and the true "tyranny of evil"
my .02
jim
On the other hand you have the B-17 "He@@s Angels" that would go on to inspire a rogue motorcycle group. Of course they didn't know this at the time but nobody wanted to be portrayed as "He@@s Angels" in the middle of a war. There was the famous German propoganda piece that featured a captured crew wearing jackets painted with the monicker "Murder Incorporated". They paraded them around as prime examples of the American attitude toward the war and the true "tyranny of evil"
my .02
jim
Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:35 pm
On the other hand you have the B-17 "He@@s Angels" that would go on to inspire a rogue motorcycle group.
What is the real story? I've read several and here is an example
http://www.hamc-nomads.de/docs/history.php
Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:23 pm
The real story is that the term was floating around since at least 1930, when it was the title of a Howard Hughes movie about WWI pilots. Several WWII fighting outfits and aircraft borrowed the name, including the Army's 11th Airborne division, one squadron of the AVG, USMC squadron VMF-321, and numerous individual fighters and bombers (sometimes using the singular, "He**'s Angel"). It hardly seems possible or important to untangle from which combination of these sources the biker gang got its name.
A few points are relevant to this, the Memphis Belle, and the Tuskegee-airmen-lost-no-bombers discussions:
1. Everything that anyone heard about WWII during and for a time after the conflict was what someone wanted them to hear. All of the combatants were excellent propagandists, including the U.S., whose media at that time were much easier to control and in any case had no interest in adopting the critical stance toward the government that they sometimes adopt now.
2. Nowadays we are supposedly debunking some myths handed down by the wartime propaganda machine in search of truth, but everyone still has an agenda. There are some manifestly false or dubious narratives about the war that we are now interested in tearing down; but also others that we do not dare touch. History is not what happened. The past is what happened. History is stories we make up about the past, always for our own purposes. The interesting question when people start to challenge these old war myths is "Why challenge THIS myth, and why NOW?"
3. A "motorcycle club" can be pretty good at propaganda also.
August
A few points are relevant to this, the Memphis Belle, and the Tuskegee-airmen-lost-no-bombers discussions:
1. Everything that anyone heard about WWII during and for a time after the conflict was what someone wanted them to hear. All of the combatants were excellent propagandists, including the U.S., whose media at that time were much easier to control and in any case had no interest in adopting the critical stance toward the government that they sometimes adopt now.
2. Nowadays we are supposedly debunking some myths handed down by the wartime propaganda machine in search of truth, but everyone still has an agenda. There are some manifestly false or dubious narratives about the war that we are now interested in tearing down; but also others that we do not dare touch. History is not what happened. The past is what happened. History is stories we make up about the past, always for our own purposes. The interesting question when people start to challenge these old war myths is "Why challenge THIS myth, and why NOW?"
3. A "motorcycle club" can be pretty good at propaganda also.
August
Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:00 pm
The Memphis Belle flew it's final combat mission on May 17th, 1943. It was the second to finish it's tour of duty of 25 missions, but was the first to be sent back home for a warbond tour.
???
Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:08 pm
Actually it was the third. Another 91st BG B-17F "Delta Rebel" completed it's 25th mission on May 15, 1943.
The Memphis Belle flew it's final combat mission on May 17th, 1943. It was the second to finish it's tour of duty of 25 missions,
Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:17 pm
tell me again...just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin??
Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:48 am
The Memphis Belle was the first B-17 to fly it's 25 missions and be sent home to the U.S. The original Delat Rebel never flew in Europe, it was damaged stateside in fuel truck accident. Delta Rebel 2 flew a few missions doing PR stuff with Clark Gable. Not taking anything away from Gable who did fly at least 5 real combat missions in a B-17.
Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:07 am
Airdales wrote:You just can't trust anybody these days...or in days past!
Yeah, next we'll have someone telling us that the German Enigma Cipher machine was first captured by the Americans and NOT the Royal Navy!
???
Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:09 am
Delta Rebel 2 flew a few missions doing PR stuff with Clark Gable.
The 25 mission record is as follows --
H*ll's Angels B-17F - 13 May 1943
The 91st BG(H) B-17 "Delta Rebel 2" flew her
25th mission on 15 May 1943 - four days before
Memphis Belle flew 25.
Memphis Belle B-17F- 19 May 1943
Captain Jim Verinis, original Copilot on the Morgan Crew, flew only a few missions with Capt Morgan and the Memphis Belle. He was upgraded from CoPilot to Pilot and completed his 25 missions several dfays before Capt Morgan.The crew that flew Memphis Belle to the USA was a make up crew of men who had completed 25 missions
and has Paul Harvey would say..............
"and that's the rest of the story".