Saddam execution ?

[Bill Greenwood]

Here is a topic that might stir some emotions, but I'm thinking of something outside the norm. Saddam has received a death sentence. Is there any good reason he should not be executed by the Iraqis?

[Brad]

I'll be happy to pull the handle if nobody else wants to.....

[Elroy13]

I'll be happy to pull the handle if nobody else wants to.....

I'll 2nd that, Brad!!!

[tom d. friedman]

wack him!! he's got more blood on his hands from innocent lives than anybody can conceive. he fuels the flames of hatred right from his jail cell. he is vermin in it's worst form.

[bdk]

Here is a topic that might stir some emotions, but I'm thinking of something outside the norm. Saddam has received a death sentence. Is there any good reason he should not be executed by the Iraqis?

The death sentence is cruel! He was just misunderstood by society. His agression all leads back to his childhood and the hatred he harbored for his mother who refused to breast feed him.

Are you suggesting he should be executed by someone else? Maybe the UN should do it. He's the one who violated the UN sanctions after all.

[Broken-Wrench]

Heck they should turn him loose! He knew how to keep those people in line over there!

Last edited by Broken-Wrench on Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[k5083]

I think executing him is a mistake.

Oh, he deserves it, if anyone does. But:

It will make him a martyr. This is not actually a very serious concern. His execution will likely lead to a short-term spike in violence, but let's face it, the portion of the Iraqi population that opposes the U.S.-backed regime is not running short of reasons to hate it, and its production of violence and chaos is probably running pretty close to capacity. The more serious concerns have to do with the implications of this act for the legitimacy of Iraq's government:

1. First, much of the world, and the great majority of the population in developed democracies, decries the death penalty as barbaric per se. So this will tarnish the standing of Iraq's government among the most important, progressive countries (and the ones with the most monetary aid to lend down the road).

2. Second, the amount of due process being granted to Saddam seems more appropriate to medieval Europe, or perhaps France during the Terror, than an enlightened democracy. 30 day time limit? Senior appeals judge reversing a co-defendant's no-death sentence and demanding the death penalty? Can you imagine what would happen in this country if a trial court found insufficient grounds for the death penalty but Justice Roberts said "No, he's got to fry?" The Supreme Court building would be in flames by the next day, and I'd be holding one of the torches. In a civilized democracy this couldn't happen. Another strike on the Iraqi regime.

3. This sentence represents exactly the kind of eye-for-an-eye, vengeance-based justice that has gotten the mideast where it is today, and keeps it there. Someone has to stand above this tradition and show a little mercy -- the main innovation of Christ's teaching over that of the Old Testament, but oddly the one most readily forgotten by conservatives -- to break the cycle and set an example. Unfortunately, it seems that the cheapest real estate deal to be had in both Iraq and the U.S. these days is the moral high ground.

4. The double standard of justice in Iraq is brought into sharp relief by this. The next time a few of our guys in Iraq blow a fuse, rape a local hottie and slaughter her family, are we going to deliver them up to this wonderful Iraqi justice system where they may face a sentence of death within 30 days and no chance of appeal? Heh. Makes it pretty clear that the amount of justice you get in Iraq these days depends on who you are and what side you are on. Again, not something that reflects well on the current Iraqi regime.

All of this will damage the reputation not only of the Iraqi government, but the U.S.'s as well, because the Iraqi government is still widely seen as a puppet of the U.S. It's just a very poor start for a regime that is trying to be, and to be seen by the world as, progressive, democratic, and governed by the even-handed application of the rule of law.

August

[tom d. friedman]

he's a martyr already. make his sentence carried out with international participants, that way we all can be called infidels, pagans etc, & thus 1 nation is not holding the bag, namely the u.s. which has held the sh*t end of the stick in the long run. this iraq thing failed because the international coalition didn't stick together. not bush's or blair's fault either, or other minor international participants.. these insurgents are waging war just like the vietcong..... with ingenuity & resolve while we have our ultra high weapons. the russians were put down in the same manner in afghanistan. i support our forces, the cause, our country etc, but we need to pull out with pride, it's their country plain & simple. we tried to ply our methods / philosophy near 5 years now to no tangible success other than sadaam's capture.

[bdk]

1. First, much of the world, and the great majority of the population in developed democracies, decries the death penalty as barbaric per se. So this will tarnish the standing of Iraq's government among the most important, progressive countries (and the ones with the most monetary aid to lend down the road).

Progressives like the UN got us into this mess. I say bring "Ol' Sparky" out from retirement in Florida. I'm tired of what Germany and France think about what the US does. No matter what we do they won't like it. Of course their history regarding peace isn't that great.

In a civilized democracy this couldn't happen. Another strike on the Iraqi regime.

So first the US isn't sensitive enough to the way things are expected to be done in the Middle East, and now we foster non-civility. Who is the Iraqi government trying to impress, European "progressives" or other Islamists?

3. This sentence represents exactly the kind of eye-for-an-eye, vengeance-based justice that has gotten the mideast where it is today, and keeps it there. Someone has to stand above this tradition and show a little mercy -- the main innovation of Christ's teaching over that of the Old Testament, but oddly the one most readily forgotten by conservatives -- to break the cycle and set an example. Unfortunately, it seems that the cheapest real estate deal to be had in both Iraq and the U.S. these days is the moral high ground.

You mean the kind of justice that works? I'm no expert, but I think that the bible supports both just wars as well as punishment of criminals. Are there no ramifications for breaking the ten commandments?

4. The double standard of justice in Iraq is brought into sharp relief by this. The next time a few of our guys in Iraq blow a fuse, rape a local hottie and slaughter her family, are we going to deliver them up to this wonderful Iraqi justice system where they may face a sentence of death within 30 days and no chance of appeal?

American citizens breaking the law in Indonesia have run into similar situations. What about Mexico refusing to extradite American citizens eligible for the death pealty? There are double standards all over the place. This is not only an American problem.

All of this will damage the reputation not only of the Iraqi government, but the U.S.'s as well, because the Iraqi government is still widely seen as a puppet of the U.S. It's just a very poor start for a regime that is trying to be, and to be seen by the world as, progressive, democratic, and governed by the even-handed application of the rule of law.

So after all this, what is your recommendation?

[k5083]

So after all this, what is your recommendation?

Well, not execute him, obviously. Let him rot in prison, I guess.

But I can't say that doesn't come with a downside. The problem is that if we let him live, it's hard to shut him up. That wouldn't be so bad if he was like many dethroned despots, a doddering psychopath living in a dream world. Unfortunately, he has shown over the past three years that he is in full command of his faculties and he is no idiot. These letters and speeches that he keeps doing are, frankly, brilliant. He's preaching reconciliation, tolerance, and patience. Of course we know it's all b.s. because he had absolutely no interest in those things when he was in power, but compared to the inane rhetoric coming out of both the insurgent and U.S./Iraqi sides in the current conflict, his now seems, perversely, like the voice of reason. And it seems that people in Iraq continue to listen to him; he is more charismatic, as well as more intelligent, than the current U.S. president. This makes him dangerous. There is a risk that, like Nelson Mandela, he can help bring about the destruction of the government even from within prison, in the long run.

Of course, there could be no greater betrayal of our democratic principles than to kill the guy just to shut him up. But it would be good to shut him up somehow. If only we had a network of secret prisons that we could spirit people like this off to ...

August

[cg51]

I really don't care who does it, just hang the SOB and get over with, he deserves what's coming to him!!

[bdk]

Well, this is a tough problem. I sure don't have the answer. No matter what happens though, the US and especially President George W. Bush will be blamed.

We are all infidels. Those "Progrressives" that placate them are still infidels and at equal risk if not more for being perceived as weak.

P.S. Death WITHIN 30 days. That could mean tomorrow!

[Former Member]

I think we should interogate him for the next 20 years to try and find out where the weapons of mass destruction are. According to some of the right wing nuts out there like Rush, O'Reilly, & Hannity it's still just a matter of time before we find them!

Seriously though, the guy deserves what's coming to him and I have zero pity for loser. I just wish they'd publish more photos of Saddam washing his underwear by hand, in his jail cell...now that was funny!!!

John

[Bill Greenwood]

Ok, the idea I had was does Saddam have any trade value? Who would want him? How about Iran? Saddam had a multiple year war with Iran, and I think he used poison gas against them or sm I wrong on this? They might prefer to try and/or execute him. The bipartisan study group on the war came up with many ideas, which of course Bush ignored, but one was to attempt to negotiate with Syria and Iran. There is a letter in Wed USA Today from Syrian ambassador pro nego. Iran may be a tough sell, but they sponsor Shiite military in Iraq and have the nuclear problem. Is Saddam anything they'd be willing to deal for, with whatever that nut's name is. My idea is probably not legal, maybe not ethical; and obviouly not going to be done; it is just another line of thinking. On the humanitartian side, K5083 had some good points. The death penalty in many places is not eqitable, it may be bad PR for the US, but Saddam doesn't rise much sympathy in me. I remember him holding and threating a 5 year old British boy as hostage. Maybe his execution would be some deterent to other tyrants.

[bdk]

Saddam used poison gas (a weapon of mass destruction by the way) on his own Kurdish population. I don't recall if gas was used in the Iran/Iraq war or not.

There is evidence that Saddam shipped poison gas to Syria in 2002. I know this to be a fact because I just heard it on talk-radio.

My recommendation is for Bill and k5083 to take the following class at Swarthmore College and report their findings back to the WIX community:

PEAC 042. Nonviolent Responses to Terrorism
(Cross-listed as SOAN 042)

Nonviolently confronting those who seek to prevail through intimidation and terror may seem impossible—until we analyze carefully the variety of interests underlying the choice of terrorist strategies and draw upon the rich history of nonviolent counter-terrorist tactics in many settings, including within the United States (such as the experience of African Americans). In this course, we will deconstruct "terrorism," study the dynamics of cultural marginalization, and build on promising nonviolent cases to construct hypotheses and even venture into policy alternatives.

1 credit.

Spring 2007. Lakey.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/cc_peaceconflict.xml

I'm sure that when a bunch of peaceniks show up in Baghdad to protest the war the terrorists will diffuse all their roadside bombs and sing Cumbayah with the their new friends. Peace will thus ensue.

And on a related note of self-important social responsibility:

Swarthmore Removes Coca-Cola Products from Campus
http://www.swarthmore.edu/x8347.xml