What's in the middle of nowhere? (Big Spring, TX)

[Connery]

covered them in plastic sheets so that dust which is abundant in W. Texas would not be all inside the cockpits

HA! Obviously you have not lived in West Texas....the only way to keep that dust out is to put them under water...

Hey, that was taken from my office building when I worked in Lubbock for NTS Communications. (Metro Tower)

[gregv]

What would be awesome would be for Mr. Big Bucks to buy the ten Buchons and work out a partnership with flug werks, or Aero Trader, or (?) and set up a production line.
OPtion A, you can have one refurbished for static display in it's Bof B movie scheme or fresh paint.
Option B, you have have one restored to flying condition OSMOH evereything as the HA-1112 Buchon that they are. YOur choice of paint.
Option C, Keep the Merlin, retrofit with the three bladed prop and other mods to give it the near Me-109 look.
Option D, OSMOH everything to Me-109G standards including the DB 601 engine, etc. Not cheap!
Option E, my choice, OSMOH everything to Me-109 standards except keep the Merlin, modern instruments in front cockpit, and convert to a two seat dual control. Add all the late factory mods like the tall tail and extended tail wheel strut to make it a better flyer.
Unlike the FW-190's, Me-262, and Oscars, these could be available to the customer in 6 to 24 months !
what do you guys think?!!

All options good ideas, and definitely good bang for the buck. Personally, though, as far as options C & D go, I think it may be time to treat Buchons as historic aircraft in their own right, as opposed to back-dated into some sort of half-breed representation of an earlier production type from which they are descended. Let's face it, an Me109 made from a Buchon with a DB601/5 stuck on the front is never going to be as historic as a plain old Buchon.

And if a Buchon is equivalent to a G model, then a DB605 would be the proper engine, unless we are talking about the few 109G-0's made.

Just my two cents, and not meant to be a bash of what is a very good & practical idea.

Although the site of 4,6 or even 8 Buchons doing a flyby in BoB film or Spanish Air Force livery would be simply amazing.

cheers

greg v.

[Warbird Kid]

Like the BoB Memorial Flight, what if some group snatched up all 10 Hispanos, maybe found a CASA HE-111, and made the German equivilent to the BoB Memorial Flight?

That would be the ultimate!

[retroaviation]

JDK, you're certainly right about the Widgeon/Goose error I made.

Sorry about the misinformation folks. I still have a lot of learnin' to do about these old airplanes.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Gary

[marine air]

I respect your opinion that they are a military aircraft in their own right. But there's not a market on the warbird airshow circuit or with collector's for a Buchon' (Spanish for big chested pidgeon.) The Spanish used them for the ground attack role, not sure if they ever saw combat. Maybe against Basque separatists(?)
So the intrinsic value of the design lies in it's Messerchmitt DNA, IMHO.
50 years from now collectors will still be hoarding items from the Second World War, not so much from the smaller conflicts. So from an investors viewpoint, it is attractive as a representation of a wartime Messerschmitt design. Incidentally, Professor Messerschmitt helped design the postwar HA-200 jet for the Spanish, and you can pick one up for about $15,000.
So, it's Huge $$ appeal seems to be it's relation to it's wartime twin brother. Authentic BF-109's available for purchase and restoration are few and far between, so it seems these 10 and others would help satisfy that demand.
the Buchon is based on the Me-109G-2, so the DB 601 fits nicely. Keeping the Merlins on some of the "flyers" would add reliability and relieve pressure off the already high prices of airworthy DB engines and parts. I hope this helps explain my reasoning a little better.
Regards,

[Tulio]

. . . The Spanish used them for the ground attack role, not sure if they ever saw combat. Maybe against Basque separatists(?) . . .

A number of approximately 150 aircraft was jointly sent by Spain and France during February 1958, to combat Moroccan troops and irregulars (The Saharan Liberation Army) who had invaded the Spanish administered territories of the Western Sahara.

Of these aircraft, the 71st Fighter-Bomber Squadron (15 aircraft) arrived to Ifni on 30 January 1958, after a direct flight from BA El Copero, Sevilla and carrying external fuel tanks but even with the supplementary fuel, made it to the landing strip at Ifni, almost in fumes.

One airplane, flown by Teniente Barbadillo, crashed on landing.

The Buchones flew on the 31st to El Aaiun.

The photo shows these aircraft while in Ifni, and comes from the Fundacion Aeronautica de Guadalquivir:

http://www.fag.es/sevilla/tablada/labat ... aterra.htm



The Buchones participated in combat operations against Moroccan troops in conjunction with French colonial troops, as well as with troops from the Spanish Foreign Legion.

This shot from:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/t ... o+color....



Shows a large number of Hispano Buchones in either Tablada, or in El Copero (I don't know which one).


Saludos,


Tulio

[Warbird Kid]

Great pics!

My personal wish would be able to obtain two Hispanos and fly them in the same squadron markings, much like "Hun Hunter" and "Wicked Wabbit". And when I had enough money, Id do then nessacary modifications to fly them both as Bf-109Gs.

And maybe a Spitfire in there for good measure.

[Ztex]

Thanks for the links Tulio!

Prowling around in there I found this...
http://www.fag.es/sevilla/batallainglaterra/batallainglaterra.htm


How cool is this shot!

[Tulio]

Although in Spanish, one of the links above, mentions the name of the Spanish pilot who reportedly taught the CAF guys how to fly the Hispano Buchon, and checked them out on it.

The web site states that the guy also flew in the BoB filming. There are some pictures from that era in the links provided above.

Saludos,


Tulio

[gregv]

I respect your opinion that they are a military aircraft in their own right. But there's not a market on the warbird airshow circuit or with collector's for a Buchon' (Spanish for big chested pidgeon.) The Spanish used them for the ground attack role, not sure if they ever saw combat. Maybe against Basque separatists(?)
So the intrinsic value of the design lies in it's Messerchmitt DNA, IMHO.
50 years from now collectors will still be hoarding items from the Second World War, not so much from the smaller conflicts. So from an investors viewpoint, it is attractive as a representation of a wartime Messerschmitt design. Incidentally, Professor Messerschmitt helped design the postwar HA-200 jet for the Spanish, and you can pick one up for about $15,000.
So, it's Huge $$ appeal seems to be it's relation to it's wartime twin brother. Authentic BF-109's available for purchase and restoration are few and far between, so it seems these 10 and others would help satisfy that demand.
the Buchon is based on the Me-109G-2, so the DB 601 fits nicely. Keeping the Merlins on some of the "flyers" would add reliability and relieve pressure off the already high prices of airworthy DB engines and parts. I hope this helps explain my reasoning a little better.
Regards,

I couldn't agree more. There just isn't much demand for the Spanish article, which is too bad. It would be easier if there were more cores & support for the DB engines; they must be ultra-expensive to rebuild. I wonder if bearings, rings, seals etc. have to be custom made or if someone actually has them on the shelf? It doesn't help that there was a whole bunch of different variations either, from the DB605A through DB605ACM etc. etc.

Having said that, the real Me109 projects that are available don't seem to get snapped up that quick; IIRC, Pearce still has that 109E pulled out of a Russian lake for sale, and it is very complete and in good shape. And the rebuilds that are going on seem to all go very slowly.

cheers

greg v.

P.S. pretty sure about the DB605 being the G model engine; someone else may know more.

[marine air]

On the engine swap, I'm not an expert on the DB's . SHould have just said the DB series of V-12's. Different models come up sor sale everyonce in a while and you're right, it would make a difficult project even more complex if you didn't have the exact engine for that airframe, as well as propellor, governors, oil coolers, spinner and back plate, and on and on.
Has anyone ever looked at putting an Allison V-12 on the nose of the Buchon? Would it be lighter? It sure would be a lot cheaper and easier to maintain.

[retroaviation]

Connie mentioned to me that when he got the DB601, he actually wanted the 605, which was indeed in the "G" model 109's. The 601 was in the "F" model, if I recall what he said correctly.

Gary

[gregv]

There was the Allison installation being designed for that Fw190D (Flug Werke based), with the custom long nose casing to clear the annular radiator. I guess that's on hold pending some legal mumbo-jumbo, but it was pretty cool. If that can be made to work then I don't see why an Allison couldn't do the trick in a 109 airframe. Can Allisons be rigged to run inverted? Or is that about the same as trying to make an R2800 into a rotary?

I wonder how much the basic airframe would have to be adjusted to use the DB601 and fashion an F model? I think a 109G-0 would be too obscure for most people's tastes, which I believe also used the 601.

There's the "109E" in the Museum of Flight in Seattle (ex-Champlain); that is a Buchon with a 601 and a genuine E model cowling (from Sweden), making it somewhat of a mixed breed mutt...

cheers

gv

[Michel Lemieux]

gregv wrote:

is that about the same as trying to make an R2800 into a rotary?

Now that is a funny image to think of Castor oil sir

[SparrowV12]

When I worked for Thorn, we of course talked about engines--what else. We had several discussion's regarding the DB series of engines. He told me he knew of a fellow in Germany that rebuilt them. This person had indicated that engine's that were recoved from the dirt ususally had a certain set of parts that were salvageable. Engine's that were recovered from the water tended to have an "opposite" set of parts that were useable. The DB's are a really cool engine, I have seen a couple of them. Every now and again on Barnstormers a fellow in Europe somewhere offers bits and pieces of them for sale. Recently there was a crankcase for sale, unfortunately it had the nosecase ripped off of it. I'd like to have one to play with.

Sparrow