Swamp Ghost has been sold and should be come to.........

kennsmithf2g · **Posted:** Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:51 pm

When I was a lot younger (in the 1960's), I can remember reading an article about the Swamp Ghost and always wondered why no-one recovered her. I also recall reading an article about someone pulling a plane out of a jungle after getting permission from the local authorities and land owners to recover it and had gotton so frustrated in "newly materilized landowners" claims after he had gotten it out to a dock that he got a bulldozer and pushed it off the dock into the water and left. Now I know why after reading this saga.

Kenn

DIK SHEPHERD · **Joined:** Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:33 pm **Posts:** 95

Regardless of any and all agreements made concerning the A-20, or any other aircraft, I seriously doubt that it will ever return to PNG.

Not just because there will never be a place to display it, but because no matter how we may feel about these old aircraft there just isn't the same interest there. Thus, no politician in that country will seek to end his career by trying to get the public funds that would be needed, to be spent for the benefit of the few PNG people that are interested.

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:35 am

Well, the recovery of Hell N' Pelican has already been accomplished, which eliminates the possibility for the type of "dock tug-o-war" that took place with Swamp Ghost. I'd bet a motivated buyer could offer the PNG government a low six-figure donation in exchange for the old airplane and maybe make a square deal out of it. As alluded to above, the PNG politicians might well prefer to see an easy quarter-million fall into their laps overnight than to othewise deal with the tedious prospect of spending time effort and money to manage the relocation and housing of some foreign display aircraft.

setter · **Posted:** Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:22 am

Shhhhh!!!

This is a govt to govt deal and as such a little more bound than that but there are wheels turning.......I really think it will go back eventually and I hope so

John P

Digger · **Posted:** Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 am

Hi All.

I think a few home truths are in order, just to set the record straight about the People of PNG and the Government situation.

PNG was a territory of Australia until 1975 (I think) when basically Australia said, bugger it, why should we worry about it, and handed the people of PNG their independence.

Since that time Australia has continued to support development in that country to significant amounts, I understand in 2004-05 financial year it was in the arena of $500m AUD. Australian companies play a significant role in mining and exploration as do a number of other countries with regards to the Timber industry, fishing industry and a few other more major types. Less than 30% of earnings from any of these ventures remain in the country. PNG is torn between a population which lives well below third world conditions and thriving suburban dwellings that house ex pats and affluent papuans. Like any country there is a great national spirit divided between these two groups, the poor who generally hold on to traditional beliefs and the rich, who see the power of the dollar and the urge to develop as a cure for the problems in PNG.

As for having 60 years to do something about these relics, that is a bit unfair because in reality they have only had since 1975 to establish a democratic government system (albeit dodgy at times) establish basic infrastructures beyond the really inadequate systems that were inherited from us, the Australians and then to develop, implement and maintain an economic framework that is supposed to keep the country on an even keel.

No matter how critical we are of the PNG Government and its people we need to keep things in perspective. It would be like handing over a broken down aircraft that is maxed out in hours etc and expecting someone who has never flown before to fly it to a specified destination well beyond the range of the aircraft and for it to arrive there in better condition than when it was originally handed over. A bit simple and corny perhaps as an example but I think the expectations are about the same.

I agree and support the removal of Swamp Ghost and its intended restoration. I am not convinced it should be returned to PNG for display. I base this on the fact that PNG has bigger issues to concern itself with and the removal of aircraft relics measures insignificantly on any scale. yes, when the time comes I think we should have some respect and assist PNG with the construction and maintenance of a Military museum. But I am afraid that time is along way off and I do not agree that any relic should be left to rot into nothing for the sake of making a few people feel better about themselves. I draw this opinion from my own experiences herein Australia where I have tried to recover two RAAF crew members from a shallow fresh water lake only to be told that they, and the wreckage that contains them, are better off left in situ for tourists to enjoy.

I would imagine that the uproar about Swamp Ghost is more about the percieved processes than the aircraft itself and it now seems that these issues are being addressed. I look forward to following the recovery, restoration and hopefully the eventual flight of Swamp ghost like a kid waiting for the candy shop to open, because, it is a part of my history and one which I demand be preserved.

thanks

thats my two cents worth

Digger

Jungle Bob · **Joined:** Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:36 am **Posts:** 49

Rob

I do agree with you. Quite an accurate summation.

Speaking of summation I am "suprised" to see Justin Taylan is promoting on his website that in Junes edition he will be publishing the "full story"on the SG recovery.

Would like to know how he is going to do this when he isnt tslking to the SG recovery team nor is he talking to the right people in PNG.

As Justin and his cohorts lurk around this site, perhaps he would like to reply and illuminate us on how he proposes to do this. Will he cover such issues as the request to the Immigration authorities in PNG for him to blacklisted? (Please note I have a copy of the letter)

In the interim I would like to thank the thousand of people who logged their support for whats happened with SG. The negative rhetoric in the newspapers certainly is nt reflected with the PNG political heirarchy or the general public.

On a final note, isnt this the most amazing thread length, let alone the staggerring number of hits.

setter · **Posted:** Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:13 am

Guys

Just remember you don't have to be wrong to get your tushy sued off - please be careful - I'd hate to see some good guys get beaten by drongoes here just because they were right technically

Jungle Bob and Rob et al - Idiots hang themselves by their own actions don't flame the fires as they will do that for themselves - great thing happened here and you should be proud of that

Yes you are correct about the government but you know it isn't that simple in practice

Regards
John P

DonL · **Posted:** Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:01 am

Perhaps I've missed the answer to this because of the thread length but is Swamp Ghost on the boat and safely away from PNG or is it still on the dock. Thanks

frankspeaks · **Joined:** Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:52 pm **Posts:** 160

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... sc&start=0

They have cleared it to leave. I don't know if it's actually crated and loaded yet, but when it is, they have permission to leave.

Good call by the PNG govt on the contract!
Clear minded people seem to always be able to see thru the smoke....

JBoyle · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:44 am

JBoyle wrote:

Some of our English allies on another message board seem to be against the recovery...saying it smacks of "Cultural Imperialism".

A clearification:
The original author of the "Cultural Imperialism" phrase on the 'other board' was using the phrase in an attempt to generate discussion only and was NOT using it to describe the actions of those involved in the attemped recovery of the B-17 from PNG.

Sorry for any misunderstanding my post may have caused.
I urge you to check out the site to get other views on the topic.

frankspeaks · **Joined:** Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:52 pm **Posts:** 160

Sabre rattling?

Thats not what I come here for.

I mean no disrespect, but perhaps that kind of post should be in a PM and not out here on the public board.

JBoyle seemed to be making an apology about a percieved misunderstanding Sorry for any misunderstanding my post may have caused.
I urge you to check out the site to get other views on the topic

We should all be so darn full of joy that she's coming home [/i]

Shay · **Posted:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:16 am

Just was looking some updates on SG and came across this.

http://www.thenational.com.pg/060906/nation7.htm

Sounds like maybe thing will get moving in the right direction for them to setup a proper museum. And with them themselves saying that there could be as many as 3000 aircraft laying out in the jungles, it seems to me that allowing 2nd parties to recover aircraft shouldn't be an issue and might be another way to generate revenue.

Quote:

Department launches plan to improve services

By BONNEY BONSELLA
THE controversy surrounding the removal of the American bomber would have been adequately addressed if only a National Executive Council decision in 1997 for the development of a K43 million Constitutional Park and the National Heritage Centre to house such priceless war relics was fully implemented.
Acting director of the National Museum and Art Gallery Simon Poraituk said yesterday that two months earlier, an American company, Portico Group, based in Seattle, Washington, did a feasibility study to develop the plan located at the front of the Parliament House and the museum for close to K30,000.
But the plan is now hanging on the walls of the museum as a furniture collecting dust while proponents have vehemently argued to retain the Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress onshore.
The plan will also cater for a Modern History and War Museum that would provide a decent home to thousands of airplanes like the Swamp Ghost and others that have already been legally taken abroad or smuggled.
Mr Poraituk said on Jan 15, 1997, NEC gave approval under the Chan government to develop the park but successive governments failed to provide funding.
A museum of Natural Science and Art Gallery was included as part of the development.
Mr Poraituk said the museum had no record of the number of airplanes taken abroad.
He said he was aware that currently, three war planes were being restored in Australia.
He said two were being restored separately in Sydney and Wangaratta (Victoria) while one has been fully restored by the Royal Australian Air Force and is ready to be shifted back to PNG but there is no decent home.
“When they are fully restored, they must find a decent home to come back to,” he said.
He said PNG did not have the technical know-how to take care of war relics and the museum also lacked the manpower to conduct surveillance to deter illegal shipment of war planes.
He estimated that more than 3,000 airplanes were still lying in the jungles waiting to be uncovered and restored.
Mr Poraituk said a proposal to spend K13.5 million to restore the old House of Assembly was yet to be implemented.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

Shay · **Posted:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:28 am

I was unaware that a agreement had been made to return SG to PNG once restored. I recall it was mentioned by the recovering party that it would have been option but wasn't agreed upon.

Quote:

Bomber gets OK to leave

THE controversial World War II B-17E bomber aircraft nicknamed the “Swamp Ghost” will be sent to the United State to be reconstructed and restored to its original form. This shall be bound by an agreement between the State and its client to have it returned when Papua New Guinea finally has the capacity to house and care for all its war materials. Minister for Culture and Tourism David Basua said this yesterday when explaining that the aircraft was not being sold off. “As minister responsible, I state that we will not sell the war relic nor give our history away. All we will do is salvage the B-17E flying fortress to be reconstructed and restored to its original form and then returned,” Mr Basua said. He said the plan to salvage and reconstruct the aircraft was shared between the governments of PNG and USA. “The plan to remove the aircraft is now a shared responsibility between Aero Archeology USA, the company that will salvage the aircraft, and the US government to whom the plane belongs, and PNG, to whom the history belongs,” Mr Basua said. Mr Basua said he has directed the national museum management to have the owner of Aero Archaeology to sort out all necessary documents for the good of the Swamp Ghost. He said the State could rebuild the aircraft in PNG but that would be costly and technical expertise in manpower and infrastructure was not available. National Museum and Art Gallery director Simon Poraituk acknowledged the minister’s move saying after restoring and reconstructing the B-17E war craft, it will attract more tourists. “For the last 64 years, it has been sitting in the Agiambo swamp in the Northern Province and has not attracted many people but after it is restored, it definitely will,” Mr Poraituk said.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

DIK SHEPHERD · **Joined:** Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:33 pm **Posts:** 95

As the US Government has nothing to do with this aircraft, or it's recovery, I can guarantee that this B-17 will never return to PNG. Regardless of what any politician says.

And as far as their history is concerned, it's incidental and means nothing. Not even to them.

By that I mean that the events that occurred there have great meaning, but there were so very few indigenous people involved that it has little or no meaning to the current, or future, population.

PatM · **Posted:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:05 pm

"He estimated that more than 3,000 airplanes were still lying in the jungles waiting to be uncovered and restored."

....sounds like there's more than enough to go around! Build the museum and sell off some airframes for the benefit of the locals.

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Swamp Ghost has been sold and should be come to.........

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