Warbird Information Exchange

JDK

You know me well enough to know my point was not in trying to be a uber-nationalist, but rather point out a long standing error on the part of the NASM.
I have absolutely no qualms about there being an international flavor to the museum. Only a fool would not acknowledge the role of other nations in aviation history. Concorde needs to be there, as does a Comet, Mosquito and other foreign made aircraft. Yes, a Lysander and Walrus too. If you know of a Lancaster sitting around, I'd donate a few dollars to the effort to place it there as well. And I'd like to see Week's Mosquito there instead of in Wisconsin where few get to see it.
My statement is not meant to be anti non-US aircraft, rather a well deserved comment about the people running the NASM

My specific points about the Swoose are:
-It's the sole remaining early B-17...and one of the very few Forts with a combat history.
-In my original message, you'll note I specifically mentioned the D0335 and the Japanese sub floatplane. Both have no significant combat history and are technological dead ends. (Center line thrust didn't prove to be a huge breakthrough...unless you count the Cessna O-2). The Ar 234, is significant from a technological viewpoint, but again, it has a very limited combat history (especially compared to the B-17). Imagine if the IWM or RAFM spent time on a non-combat foreign aircraft instead of a Stirling or Hallifax...
(Hopefully they finally restore the Halifax and build a Stirling).
-You'll note I did not mention the museums' beautiful Hurricane...during visits to the Gerber restoration facility I saw it undergoing restoration and the NASM should be proud to have the plane on display.
-I'm sure the Swoose will be restored one day...but it looks like they haven't touched it (other than to move it) since the first time I saw photos of it in storage when I was a child (Flying Magaine had an article about it bback in the late 60s). Certainly, it must have moved up in the line since then. It would have been nice to see it restored while some of the people who built and flew it were still alive. Sadly, that time has pretty much passed. (A bit of personal interest disclosure here...my late fathers 15th AF bomb group, the 463rd, was named "The Swoose Group" after that plane. I'm sure many group members would have enjoyed seeing it at some point). I hope to see it restored before I die...come on guys the clock is ticking.
-To the best of my knowledge, they haven't even offered it to Boeing workers to restore like they did with the 307.
- I believe your anology comparing the NASM to the AAM at Duxford is a bit off...if I'm not mistaken the AAM is seperate from the main IWM...certainly its building was paid for by donations and the AAM was not intended to be seen as the UK's official national aviation museum.
And we've both read (on the "other" forum) many comments by people in the UK begrudging the fact many American airplanes are inside the AAM while many UK aircraft still sit outside in the weather.
-When I first went to the RAF Museum while in University, the only American aircraft I saw there was the Hoverfly...and since that time the RAF (and other museums) have grown a lot in showing allies aircraft. I've seen the B-17 in the "Bombers Hall" at Hendon and appreciate the gesture. And it was nice that they were given by an American a flyable P-51 for display. Ceratinly the NASM building on the Washington Mall showcasing a Spitfire, Messerchmitt and "Zero" shows that the NASM honors other countries....I'm not sure if another country would give up such prime display space for allies and foes aircraft.

Yes, it would be great to get a Yak...and I fully agree with your thoughful assessment of the disservice the USSR did to its own (and allies) history in WWII.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

I will put $5.00 on the fact that you will not see flak bait(B-26) in one piece for 5-10 years, and even longer for the swoose. I agree it is a shame that they have done nothing with this aircraft. An officail at the museum told me that the G model will more than likely never go on display.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Hi Guys,

Just my two cents worth. If the NASM has a B-17 that will "likely" never see the indise of the display facility, then in my humble opinion that should sell it to someone with the monetary wherewithall to put it back into the air. I look at it from this perspective. If the USAF Museum has now TWO B-17's (Shoo Shoo Babay and now the Mephis Belle) what or where is the need on the part of the USAF museum to have TWO identical airframes on display ? Where the Memphis Belle is a much more recognizeable airframe to the public at large, Shoo Shoo Baby doesn't have the "pedigree" that the Memphis Belle does in the eyes of the public.

Shoo Shoo Baby also was flown from it's restoration place to Dayton, therefore, in my view at least if they were to part with her, she's about as close to airworthy as any other airframe. So, I would assume that the same principle would apply to the B-17 that the NASM has that by their own admission won't be redone.

Just my two cents worth

Paul

I agree that the NASM should dispose of the B-17G, but if I'm them I'm saving it to use as trade bait for something that I really want- maybe that Yak we've been talking about?

I think the difference between that approach and the idea of NMUSAF disposing of Shoo Shoo Baby is that Shoo has a documented combat record, as does (obviously) the Belle. I can't see the NMUSAF ever wanting to get rid of either of those two aircraft. I'd much rather see them keep both of those B-17s in safe, indoor, climate-controlled storage and to start disposing of the gate guard B-17s.

kevin

I understand the NMUSAF plans to build a new facility specifically to display the Belle, and SSSB will stay in her current position in the WWII gallery. I've been told that it'll be anywhere from five to ten years before the Belle is ready for display.

SN

That is correct. Well sort of. The plan is that the USAF is building a beautiful conference center that will be joined to the NMUSAF. This conference center will have a beautiful display hallway that will house one of the collections B-17's. It has not been decided which one is going in there yet. This hall will be open to the public so which ever ends up there will still be seen. There is no chance of the NMUSAF giving up one of the '17's. There are several reasons why. First is that they both will be on public display(not in storage where no one can see them). Second is that they are different versions of the B-17. The Belle is an F and the Baby is a G. Would you tell planes of fame that they need to get rid of one of their Mustangs since they have a B and a D? They are different and tell about different parts of the war. If they stay in Dayton they both will be cared for. Both are combat vets and deserve that, not like the NASM leaving Swoose in the dust for years. One of the problems I have with NASM is that they asked for the Shoo Shoo Baby to be transferred to Udvar Hazy, and they have two in storage!

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

I don't think it is in MustangDriver's capacity to saw a positive thing about NASM, except perhaps that they don't shoot dogs in the parking lot during open hours.

Let us be reminded that Swoose would BE dust if NASM had not preserved it, a long time ago and at a time when few else were doing so. To villefy NASM because the airplane is not presently on display is like criticizing the orphanage because none of the kids became president. Swoose will someday be on display, after a thorough and very time-consuming restoration that emphasizes the preservation of original materials. The nature of the NASM restorations and the number of a/c to be restored (read: that they preserved when noone else was doing so) has meant that some have had to wait in line a long time. For those of us who have personally waited in such long lines for something worthwhile, we learn that patience often gets rewarded.

As to NASMs "request for Shoo Shoo Baby," let us also remember how generous NASM has been with loaning displays. The Loening OA-1A "San Francisco, Focke-Wulfe 190D-9, Sperry-Verville M-1 Messenger among others have been on loan to NMUSAF for 30-40+ years, sometimes after being first restored at Garber (ex. "San Francisco," in 1964). NASM has also deaccessioned rare aircraft to other museums, as it did with the Waco CG-4A Hadrian glider to NMUSAF.

NASM now after many years has a facility to display larger aircarft, but it will be years yet before the new restoration building is completed and some of these a/c can be preared for formal exhibit. Even while in storage these aircraft have in general been readily available to be sene in scheduled tours or studied with permission that I have always found was easily granted. Some of the aircraft on loan for decades are finally being recalled.

If indeed NASM asked NMUSAF for the Shoo Shoo Baby, it seems a reasonable request. The B-17E and G models are externally nearly identical except for a turret and other minor differences. NMUSAF does not normally exhibit a specimen of each variant. The B-17B and E models however are very different aircraft. A B-17G with a combat record would be seen by more people at Udvar-Hazy than at NMUSAF, and the fuselage of the Swoose next to it would make for a wonderful exhibit (remember that the Swoose has a more recent set of -G wings). Considering the many loans that NASM has made to NMUSAF over the years, why act insulted by the request?


Kevin.

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Kevin McCartney

Well Kevin as I always say, I love the NASM, but not the politics that run them. Why be offended? They have two B-17's that are complete and just need worked on. I would even be off of their backs if they were working on the swoose. But that is not the case. They have not touched it. As far as I am concerned the NASM did not save the Swoose, but it was the pilot that did he had it purchased form the scrap man for $350.00.
She has gone down hill since her time with the NASM. She flew to dulles on her own power, although she had to shut down two engines before landing, and now she is in pieces, vandalized, and dirty.
Kevin I can say plenty of good about the NASM, but I can some bad that needs attention. The NASM has one of the oldest and extensive collections in the world! Yes they have loaned several aircraft to the NMUSAF, but we have several aircraft on loan to them as well.
More people tour Udvar Hazy than the NMUSAF? I am not sure. I don't know the numbers. it makes sense for the NMUSAF to keep both B-17's as one will be in the WWII gallery, and the other in the hall. We have several aircraft in the collection that we also have multiples of. F-86, F-100, F-4, P-51, T-6, F-15, F-84, C-130, C-135, T-28 I can go on. The poin tis that they are important to the museum, and tell of two different times of the air war. CAF has two B-17's and they are both G models. Should they get rid of one of theirs?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

You know Kevin, you got me thinking. MAybe I am a little hard on the Air and Space Museum. I guess it is because I expect so much out of them. They are a great museum that has a ton of great aircraft. I just have to question their scheduling of restorations. AS you all know here I don't hide my feelings that great, and am pretty honest with how I see something. I guess I just come on a little strong sometimes. Believe it or not, I was at Udvar Hazy yesterday.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Most do, if they have the aircraft.

IWM London (the UK's most prime aircraft display space): Spitfire, P-51, Fw 190, and partial Zero.

France, Le Bourget: Spitfire, P-47, Fw 190, B-26, D.520, Yak-3, and I-153.

Canada, National Collection: Bf 109, Me 163, He 162 along with numerous US-built and UK-built aircraft.

Most other countries with significant aeronautical collections could also be cited.

NASM keeps up with the pack in this regard, but is hardly exceptional in showcasing foreign warbirds in its prime location. Folks all over the world like to see the representative types from each country.

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