Churchill

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:38 pm

Sunday night, I believe at 10 pm Eastern time, there is a special on Sir Winston Churchill. I don't know the which channel, perhaps the history one. In my opinion, and that of many others, he is one of a handful of great men of our century. He wasn' t always popular, maybe not always right, but when the time came for the test of a lifetime he was equal to the situation. Besides being one who saw Hitler from the start for a monster, Winston was an aritst, with an eye for beauty, and had a sharp[ sense of humor. A society lady at a party berated him for being drunk. He replied, "Yes, Madam, I am drunk and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober".

Mudge · **Posted:** Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:49 pm

Went through the Churchill Museum (Cabinet War Rooms) when we were in London last year. Spent the fastest 4 hours I can remember. Extremely interesting. If you ever get a chance...GO.

Bill...Could have been the same lady that said to him,
"Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."
To which he replied,
"Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it."

Mudge the tourist

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:41 am

How was Sir Winston when it came to providing for R&D for aircraft, support for the RAF, or taking advice from knowledgeable airmen? He seemed exceedingly nosy about everything (from other readings which mentioned him in passing) and I wonder how he was with the technology of the time as regards aviation?

phil65 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:42 am

I read were Churchill had Obsessive-compulsive disorder,called it his Black Dog.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:48 am

FF. I am not a Churchill expert. I do know after WWI, he wanted to control the military budget, and the RAF became unprepared. Great men many times may have strong opinions like Douglas Bader. The trick is to change these when it is warranted. Winston did this. He foresaw the building tension in Europe and built up the RAF, he was the main force in getting mass Spitfire production going by appointing Lord Beaverbrook. He saw Hitler for what he was from the start and never waivered. That was leadership and when it was most needed.

lmritger · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:13 am

I'm thinking our Polish friends have a markedly different view of Sir Winston, however... if you have a chance, read 'A Question of Honor', concerning the Polish 303 "Koscziusko" Squadron and other Polish RAF units. If you aren't positively infuriated by the time you get to the end of the book, I'll be surprised.

With that said, England was certainly better off with him than Chamberlain.

Lynn

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:07 am

Imritger; I'm not aware of any problem between Poles and W C. Can you briefly summarize that book? Certainly RAF tried to aid Poles in Warsaw ghetto, see " Flames in the Sky' by Clousterman, and Poles served in the RAF including some top aces. There were language and air disicpline problems initially .My Mother-in-law is Polish, at age 12 she was deported from her home in Poland, along with her Mother to a labor camp in Russia. She hated the Russians even more than the Nazis.They were freed from Russia after a year or two, by the efforts of England. They went as refugees to Iran! I have never heard her say anything bad about Churchill. I will ask when I have the chance.

DB2 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:42 am

If you ever want a truly excellent and engaging education on Churchill, watch/listen to these lectures:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/ttcx/cou ... &pc=Search

visaliaaviation · **Joined:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:01 pm **Posts:** 353

NAA aerodynamisist Ed Horkey ( he ran the numbers on the Mustang) added several specific notes regarding Churchill and long range fighter developement in an article he penned for the AAHS journal several years ago. I think it evidences Churchill had far ranging ideas and a firm grip on what was deemed nessesary in that area.

HOLLOWAYRANGER · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:41 am

He also saw past starlins smile and try to get the americans to hurry on to berlin but to no avail!

and was the man who gave us the term iron curtain!

right man for the most terrible job

after dunkirk the germans tried to offer us peace you may keep the british empire just keep out of europe!

many of the british cabinet were in fav remember invasion was expected at any moment!

churchill said NO!

We shall never surrender!

dhfan · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:19 am

lmritger wrote:

I'm thinking our Polish friends have a markedly different view of Sir Winston, however... if you have a chance, read 'A Question of Honor', concerning the Polish 303 "Koscziusko" Squadron and other Polish RAF units. If you aren't positively infuriated by the time you get to the end of the book, I'll be surprised.

With that said, England was certainly better off with him than Chamberlain.

Lynn

Without looking it up, I guess it stems from the Yalta conference where Poland was effectively handed to Russia.
Whether it's entirely fair to lay all the blame at Churchill's door, I'm not sure. He tried to convince Roosevelt of Stalin's likely intentions and failed.
That's not to say I'm blaming Roosevelt either, I just can't remember enough of the facts.

If Mudge has been to the Cabinet War Rooms, I really must go, like I've been saying I will for the last 5 years or so. It's only 150 miles away.

dHfan the lethargic.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:31 am

dhfan, Thanks, the question of Poland handed over to the Germans is a huge one I never even thought about. I guess Russia wanted something for their substantial part in the war.Maybe they deserved somethign, or maybe they had Poland and we could not force them to free it. I don't know how much of this one can lay on Churchill, he didn't ask Stalin to invade Poland. I like what he said about Stalin at a conference where Roosevelt had doubts if Winston could influence Stalin to join them; "In his heart, SUCH AS HE HAS ONE, he knows we are right."

dhfan · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:54 am

Just reading Lynn's post again, I may have got the wrong foul-up.

I know very little about it and may be remembering completely wrong, but IIRC, the Polish (and Czech?) pilots were repatriated at the end of the war and incarcerated by the authorities.

Mark Nankivil · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:29 pm

DHFan has that right about the pilots going home and in the process, then being placed in prison. Thing is, Stalin and his minions did that to anyone who was perceived as a threat. Look at what he did to most of the Russian Navy and Air Force officer corps, etc. - they were either executed or better yet, in his view, tossed in the Gulags and worked to death. Tupolev, Ilyushin, etc. and their design teams spent most of the war as prisoners yet still responsible for designing the aircraft used to fight the war. Amazing....

A quick google on the book title found this:

http://www.questionofhonor.com/prologue.htm

Check out near the end of the excerpt and that might give an idea of where the Poles hold Churchill short on his promises.

Churchill was indeed a great leader - proof that leadership does not necessarily reflect one's own personal shortcomings.

Mark

DB2 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:54 pm

dhfan wrote:

Just reading Lynn's post again, I may have got the wrong foul-up.

I know very little about it and may be remembering completely wrong, but IIRC, the Polish (and Czech?) pilots were repatriated at the end of the war and incarcerated by the authorities.

In fact the imprisonment of the Czech pilots is part of the basis of the excellent recent Czech movie Dark Blue World.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Blue_World

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