Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:53 am
are any ww 2 era restored flying boats qualified or allowed to make water landings?? i heard that is a common wrinkle in operating them.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:10 am
The W.W.II designed Martin Mars both make water landings - any other landing could be a problem... 
The NZ and Dutch operated Catalinas both operate off the water regularly, among others. Certainly there are numerous Grumman Geese and Widgeons that operate off water.
The Dornier Do-24ATT, while a 1970s reconstruction is a W.W.II hull, and has operated off the Hudson River in the last few years, as well as many other places on its world tour.
The NZ and Dutch operated Catalinas both operate off the water regularly, among others. Certainly there are numerous Grumman Geese and Widgeons that operate off water.
The Dornier Do-24ATT, while a 1970s reconstruction is a W.W.II hull, and has operated off the Hudson River in the last few years, as well as many other places on its world tour.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:15 am
Not to mention the multitude of Grumman Gooses (Geese?) and Widgeons out there... regardless if they are restored as military or not, they still are the same plane!
The NWM PBY used to do an occasional "splash and dash" on Conesius Lake near Geneseo back in the early 90's... no full stop landings, but water at least on the first step.
The NWM PBY used to do an occasional "splash and dash" on Conesius Lake near Geneseo back in the early 90's... no full stop landings, but water at least on the first step.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:42 am
other than the few that can land on water, namely the mars, what's the stipulation / reasoning for not allowing the majority ww 2 flying boats to park in the drink in the u.s.?? & by who's authority?? faa? i saw in the current issue of warbirds a pby that landed on lake geneva switzerand. great pics!! why do other countries allow water landings??
Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:44 am
JDK is right, I saw the Dornier in the water at KOSH two years ago.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:11 am
tom d. friedman wrote:other than the few that can land on water, namely the mars, what's the stipulation / reasoning for not allowing the majority ww 2 flying boats to park in the drink in the u.s.?? & by who's authority?? faa? i saw in the current issue of warbirds a pby that landed on lake geneva switzerand. great pics!! why do other countries allow water landings??
$$$$$$$..............My dad flew right seat from time to time in one of the PBY's in tamiami (now at weeks). Was talking to the pilot ( cant remember his name) Reason was of Insurance costs to make water landings. There are some seals for the nose gear doors that are not always in the greatest condition. They did a water landing once and almost lost the airplane because of this.
The other was being that the WW2 loss record. There were more losses due to water landings that actual combat losses.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:11 pm
tom d. friedman wrote:What's the stipulation / reasoning for not allowing the majority ww 2 flying boats to park in the drink in the U.S.?? & by who's authority? FAA?
More than likely the Law of Gravity!
We were supposed to watch the Boston 4th of july Fireworks on the Charles River from the top of Rob Carlson's Albatross years ago.
We planned on staying in the airplane overnight to keep the pumps going, but the Mass Aeronautics Commision squashed that for us. "No Avgas near Fireworks!"
You know, since boats are so much different!
Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:50 pm
talk about hypocrisy.... a boat holds tons more gas
Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:45 pm
B25PBYGuy,
Would you mind sharing a general description of the N7057C ferry flight on PBY@yahoo?
If you've been on the CL for the past week, I don't guess you were down at Lone Star for main gear work Sat., huh?
Doug Ratchford "Canso42"
member PBY@yahoo
"the PBY guy" at LSFM.
Would you mind sharing a general description of the N7057C ferry flight on PBY@yahoo?
If you've been on the CL for the past week, I don't guess you were down at Lone Star for main gear work Sat., huh?
Doug Ratchford "Canso42"
member PBY@yahoo
"the PBY guy" at LSFM.
Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:50 pm
Man I love that Cat! I can't wait to see it back at airshows. I really havce missed it while it was grounded. I wonder where that $$ I shoved into the 100# bomb at the NWPM to get her back into to air 
Gald she has a new home that will keep her in the air.
Tim
Gald she has a new home that will keep her in the air.
Tim
Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:14 pm
It's great to see the old girl back in the air again. It was the first Catalina I had ever seen fly and I hope to shoot it in the future, hopefully at Geneseo.
Some Geneseo memories.
Cheers,
Eric
Some Geneseo memories.
Cheers,
Eric
Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:17 pm
AIRIC wrote:It's great to see the old girl back in the air again. It was the first Catalina I had ever seen fly and I hope to shoot it in the future, hopefully at Geneseo.
Some Geneseo memories.
Cheers,
Eric
Do you think they'll fix the engines so it stops catching fire? That might be good
Tim
Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:39 pm
On the topic of PBY water landings...It's my understanding that the FAA will not certify a PBY to make water landings in US airspace if it has a nose turret. Charlie Clements' bodacious black Super Cat N287 at Tamiami has a smooth clipper bow. If you make a bad landing, with too much nose down attitude, you'll find out what lousy submarines these things make.
On the nose gear door matter, there is a potential corrosion problem with the door latches. Originally the culprit was hidden under rubber boots. Reuben Fleet never invisioned that these things would be around long enough for it to become a problem.
I can't speak for water landing regs in other countries, but David Legg a new WIX member who responded to this topic is on the crew of the Duxford Catalina G-PBYA seen in those marvelous photos in Switzerland. I'm sure he could answer your questions on flying in Europe.
Doug Ratchford "Canso42"
(FYI,,, 'Canso' is WWII RCAF-speak for PBY)
On the nose gear door matter, there is a potential corrosion problem with the door latches. Originally the culprit was hidden under rubber boots. Reuben Fleet never invisioned that these things would be around long enough for it to become a problem.
I can't speak for water landing regs in other countries, but David Legg a new WIX member who responded to this topic is on the crew of the Duxford Catalina G-PBYA seen in those marvelous photos in Switzerland. I'm sure he could answer your questions on flying in Europe.
Doug Ratchford "Canso42"
(FYI,,, 'Canso' is WWII RCAF-speak for PBY)
Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:22 pm
Firstly, that's a great photo - thanks for sharing.
Water operations. In 1996 one of two US operated PBY's commemorating the USN 'Nancy Boat' crossings of the Atlantic, lost a wingtip and was partly sunk as a result of hitting a buoy in Plymouth Harbour. It was beached, repaired and flew back that year.
A Super Catalina had a major landing accident in the UK on the water in 1998, with two killed. The full accident report from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is here, and as Canso 42 said, the problem originated from the nose door tubes.
AAIB Report on Catalina VP-BPS
An extract of the conclusions of the AAIB report are:
As far as I understand it, the UK CAA will also not allow a nose-turret equipped PBY / Catalina to operate from water if under its jurisdiction in the UK.
Seaplane operations encounter a range of risks and challenges different to land operations; some authorities and all marine aircraft operators have to consider those factors when deciding to undertake water operations, or not. That is not helped by assuming that someone's preventing our freedoms. Nor do accidents and or blame help the case for safe, continued operations.
Nose 'eyeball' turrets. The RAAF Museum's Catalina (an ex-Canso machine) has been restored with one of these turrets.
Water operations. In 1996 one of two US operated PBY's commemorating the USN 'Nancy Boat' crossings of the Atlantic, lost a wingtip and was partly sunk as a result of hitting a buoy in Plymouth Harbour. It was beached, repaired and flew back that year.
A Super Catalina had a major landing accident in the UK on the water in 1998, with two killed. The full accident report from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is here, and as Canso 42 said, the problem originated from the nose door tubes.
AAIB Report on Catalina VP-BPS
An extract of the conclusions of the AAIB report are:
Because the nosegear doors were not recovered, it is not possible to exclude the possibility that the aircraft encountered a significant piece of flotsam which caused the doors to collapse inwards.
Regardless of this, the presence of the severe corrosion in the nosegear operating mechanism torque tube can only have served to compromise the ability of the left door to resist the range of loads which might have been imposed during a water landing. The corrosion found in the torque tube had clearly developed over a long time but it went undetected because it was inside a closed area and no specific inspection of the inside of the tubes was called for.
...
The Maintenance Manual and Schedule for the Catalina were developed and written in a different age when these aircraft were very differently utilised. Although both the Manual and Schedule have been developed as a result of the Catalina's continued amphibious operation, for probably much longer than originally envisaged, there are now likely to be some time related maintenance considerations which did not previously exist.
It is, therefore, recommended to the Federal Aviation Administration that:-
98-66 The nosegear bay door torque tubes of amphibious models of Catalina aircraft are examined and the bungs, if fitted, are permanently removed to facilitate inspection of the inside of the tube and to allow it to "breathe".
98-67 An inspection technique for the inside of the torque tube assemblies is developed and included into the Maintenance Manual and Schedule for amphibious models of Catalina aircraft.
98-68 Specific dimensional requirements are developed for the rigging of the nosegear bay doors and their latching system.
As far as I understand it, the UK CAA will also not allow a nose-turret equipped PBY / Catalina to operate from water if under its jurisdiction in the UK.
Seaplane operations encounter a range of risks and challenges different to land operations; some authorities and all marine aircraft operators have to consider those factors when deciding to undertake water operations, or not. That is not helped by assuming that someone's preventing our freedoms. Nor do accidents and or blame help the case for safe, continued operations.
Nose 'eyeball' turrets. The RAAF Museum's Catalina (an ex-Canso machine) has been restored with one of these turrets.
Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:10 pm
James,
That's nice shot of VH-EXG's nose. How is that project coming along? That's the clearest nose perspex I've ever seen! New manufacture? Speaking of submersible PBY's, HARS' cat, ex. CC-CCS did some serious underwater time in Latin America. And ex C-FOWE that hit the buoy and sank is alive and well in Texas, reg. N222FT "The Flyin' Turtle".
Its owner in 1986 has since passed away and posession of the boat went to Connie Edwards who owns and flew N4NC on that same flight.
By the way, As I continue to marvel at what a small world vintage and warbird aviation is and put two's and two's together.... That was a very nice article you did for Warbird Digest #6 on your Temora Museum.
Doug Ratchford, "Canso42"
Brenham, TX. USA
That's nice shot of VH-EXG's nose. How is that project coming along? That's the clearest nose perspex I've ever seen! New manufacture? Speaking of submersible PBY's, HARS' cat, ex. CC-CCS did some serious underwater time in Latin America. And ex C-FOWE that hit the buoy and sank is alive and well in Texas, reg. N222FT "The Flyin' Turtle".
Its owner in 1986 has since passed away and posession of the boat went to Connie Edwards who owns and flew N4NC on that same flight.
By the way, As I continue to marvel at what a small world vintage and warbird aviation is and put two's and two's together.... That was a very nice article you did for Warbird Digest #6 on your Temora Museum.
Doug Ratchford, "Canso42"
Brenham, TX. USA