Dixie Clipper

Don Martin · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2007 8:40 pm

Here are a couple of interesting sites. I only just found out about the Foynes Flying Boat Museum from an old fella who was a Navy PBY F/E out of Alaska in WWII. He just found out about it in the latest issue of Ireland magazine. Make Sure to take the vertual tour!!!!!!.
http://flyingboatmuseum.com/index.php

http://flyingboatmuseum.com/vtour.php

http://www.flyingboatfestival.ca/

http://www.transatlanticflightpby.com/

And Don't Forget, July 7th, 2007 is the 70th aniversary of the first Commercial Transatlantic Flights!

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2007 8:51 pm

Wow! A full scale mock up of the Clipper! That is awsome.

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

Nathan wrote:

Hi Jiggers,

How come it seems you don't believe me? :cry:

Here is a link to one source:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-C-Wake.html.

I am originally from us-aircraft.com. A site devoted to military aviation history. While I don't know everything or even remember everything, I learned a lot about detailed information regarding combat, battles, ect. The site had many a historians such as David Aiken and Barrett Tillman. I started on the site when I was 14 years old and I tried to learn a lot about Pearl Harbor and Midway. Now I am 21 and the site forum was hit hard by SPAM. The SPAM totally killed the site and I did everything in my power to keep the boards active wth information and new posts while at the same time keep up with the daily SPAMMERS. We had many a great people there and was my first message board I was ever on. You my know j-aircraft.com which is the sister site. Which has many more people and more posts. If you need to know ANYTHING about Japanese during WWII j-aircraft.com is the place to be. Many Japanese books come out from there.

Cheers,
Nathan

Nathan,

With all due respect its not true. I have never heard of the Clipper conducting anything but a quick turn around after learning of the attack on Pearl Harbor followed by a prompt departure after the bombing that destroyed most of VMF 211.

Commander Cunningham held a meeting with the pilot of the clipper after its recall, Captain Hamilton, to ask him to fly a 100 mile circular search pattern around the island. He wanted to send 2 F-4F-3s with him as escort. Commander Cunningham expected some B-17s later in the day and these would serve as the basis for his future scouting force.

The scheduled takeoff time for the scouting mission was 1:00PM. At 12:00 pm the Chitose air group consisting of 9 G3M2 Type 96 Nells arrived and began attacking the island, VMF211 had 7 F-4-3s on the ground at the time. 6 of the 7 were completely destroyed by the bombs , bullets and gas fires from the stricken stores of AV gas nearby. Capt Hank Elrod returning with the CAP flight had the misfortune of hitting a barrel as he was taxing in and thus left the group with only 3 flyable Wildcats.

The attack ended any plans of a scouting mission as VMF 211 was left to air defense with its remaining Grummans. The Pan Am Clipper was stripped of all nonessential dead weight , luggage mail furniture and freight containers so it could carry the maximum number of evacuees. At 1:30 PM The Clipper took off after 2 false starts and headed out of harms way , east , to Midway and later pearl Harbor and finally arriving in San Francisco on the 9th.

I'm sorry if you were offended, but in years of study I had never heard or read of a scouting mission by the Clipper.

Remember Nathan, its the historians job to get the story right. I suggest that you back up internet research with the reading of as many books as possible and talking to as many people as possible about the subject you are interested in.

For more information read Gregory Urwin's book , "Facing Fearful Odds" Along with Major Deaveraux and Commander Cunninghams books on the battle. I can suggest some more if you like.

Take care and best wishes!

JDK · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 3:11 am

Jiggersfromsphilly wrote:

...its the historians job to get the story right. I suggest that you back up internet research with the reading of as many books as possible and talking to as many people as possible about the subject you are interested in.

It might be worth highlighting the difference between primary and secondary sources, as well as discussing the merits of Internet and book research. There are some appallingly inaccurate 'factual' books out there, while there are also some excellent unimpeachable websites.

Discussion based only on secondary sources is always at risk of being wrong. While primary sources can mislead, they are vital for proper research. Also, highly qualified and respected historians can be, and are, wrong on occasion.

A good definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

Nathan · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 6:42 am

Quote:

Remember Nathan, its the historians job to get the story right. I suggest that you back up internet research with the reading of as many books as possible and talking to as many people as possible about the subject you are interested in.

Hi Jiggers,

You'd be surprised at how many things people have not heard of before. But just because no on has never heard of it does not mean its not true. The Clipper patrol I found by talking with several people and reading several accounts on the subject of Wake Island.

I used to think that all the P-40B/C's on Oahu did not carry the white buzz numbers on the side. Well, I was wrong and through my own research found that a majority of them DID carry white side numbers.

Also note that the buzz numbers had no relationship towards the last three digits in the aircrafts serial number.

Us-aircraft.com and j-aircraft.com have conducted and uncovered many unknown facts about WWII. Unfortunately. what we find on the site usually stays on the site. The book "Shattered Sword" came out of j-aircraft.com which is a detailed account of the Battle Of Midway.

HTH,
Nathan

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

Nathan , can you give some sources other than the vague generalities you offer here?

JDK · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 7:39 am

Nathan wrote:

You'd be surprised at how many things people have not heard of before. But just because no on has never heard of it does not mean its not true. The Clipper patrol I found by talking with several people and reading several accounts on the subject of Wake Island.

As they say in academia, quote your sources!

Nathan wrote:

Us-aircraft.com and j-aircraft.com have conducted and uncovered many unknown facts about WWII. Unfortunately. what we find on the site usually stays on the site. The book "Shattered Sword" came out of j-aircraft.com which is a detailed account of the Battle Of Midway.

It's a fair comment that history tends to suffer from being kept in different 'boxes' due to cultural and language barriers, and as a result, those prepared to look in other languages and from other points of view than their own can do ground-breaking work. But good research and bad research standards are the same the world over. Can we have some primary source material please?

Regards,

Nathan · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 7:43 am

I'll get them.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 7:44 am

According to the Pan Am historical society wesite, it did happen, and afther the war started all most all of the clippers and their crews were forced into the military as the Clipper was needed for service.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 7:45 am

Nathan wrote:

I'll get them.

Thanks! Should further develop an interesting discussion.

oscardeuce · **Joined:** Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:34 am **Posts:** 1021

Aviation Heritage, WWII, or one of those magazines just ran an excellent article on the Clippers and the start of WWII. I'll look through the pile and find it.

Robbie Stuart · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 8:18 am

oscardeuce wrote:

Aviation Heritage, WWII, or one of those magazines just ran an excellent article on the Clippers and the start of WWII. I'll look through the pile and find it.

March 2007 Aviation History magazine. Has the story of the Clippers.

Robbie

Nathan · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 8:37 am

Hello,

Several of the sources have already been mentioned. But here is what I have. Again most of what I learned was from various discussions on us-aircraft.com.

-"A Manificent Fight" , By Robert J. Cressman.
-Pan Am Clipper Historical site.
-Various discussions on us-aircraft.com mostly.
-http://www.pacificislandtravel.com/micronesia/about_destin/wake_history2.html

At 0900, Major Putnam's four-plane combat air patrol returned to base, and after refueling and taking a smoke and stretch, the four pilots[4] clambered back into F4Fs 9 through 12, took off, executed their section rendezvous and climbed to 12.000 feet, scouting the most likely sectors for enemy approach south of Wake. Shortly afterward, the first pilot of the Philippine Clipper, Capt. J.H. Hamilton, reported to Major Putnam at VMF-211's headquarters, with orders from the Island Commander to prepare to conduct a long-range southward search with fighter escort during the afternoon.[5]

-http://www.mcguinnessonline.com/burt/flyingboat.htm
-http://www.fws.gov/midway/past/clipper.html
-http://www.west.net/~ke6jqp/panam.htm
-David Aiken
-Jim Broshot
-Jim Long

HTH,
Nathan[/b]

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

You miss the obvious in your own statement

"To prepare to conduct a long-range southward search with fighter escort during the afternoon."

To prepare.

This is not a confirmation of a search, but of an already known meeting regarding a possible search, one that was canceled by the noontime attacks.

No one will deny the fact that a search was planned, but where is any proof that it was conducted? The facts so far do not indicate it was done.

.

Nathan · **Posted:** Tue May 22, 2007 9:01 am

All I am trying to say is that when the Clipper left Wake, on its way out it conducted a search. I think the escort mission was scrubbed. I could not find anything to suggest if it happened or not, so that question is still open to debate. Just that there WERE plans to do a patrol with 2 Wildcat escorts. But my first post was about the action when the Clipper left Wake, not about the escort mission. I think we just got mixed up in two different things. But the Clipper did get strafed and several Pan AM workers were killed.

HTH,
Nate

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