More P-38s from Greenland

homer · **Joined:** Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:52 am **Posts:** 138

airnutz wrote:

No prob here, homer...I maintain even strain....

I wonder how much it would cost...if at all possible???...For someone to
"trackdown" all available NOS 1940's sheetmetal, forgings, major/ minor mechanical systems..with the "provenance" of having passed through
hands of the original builders and originated from the same plant of
it's birth? I'm short one Time Machine, and a lot shorter on bux!
There are no $$$ possible...now..to make that happen.

think aout it, 8 million bucks....get real

Shay · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:56 am

airnutz
Yeah my grandparents live 30 minutes for Middlesboro. So my folks and I have been visiting Glacier Girl every Thanksgiving since 1993. Been meaning to post some real neat pictures during her restoration. If I recall correctly the Aluminum was able to be saved due to a chemical process that allowed the piece to become pliable once again. Once soft they could be formed back into their original positions. Then another process would harden the aluminum to return it to it's original integrity. Just like new. Not all parts could be saved unfortuately. They did build and extra nose during the mid '90s to display their demilled and restored .50 cals and 20mm cannon and ammunition, at airshows to help generation funds and support. Maybe a F-5 flying out there could use an accurate nose. If anyone gets a chance take a close look at the ammo. The rounds are signed by contributors but also veteran pilots and active duty pilots, all who have visited her during restoration. Lots of neats stuff pertaining Glacier Girl. I'll try and post those pics if anyone interested. Thanks

Shay

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:16 am

Shay...WOW !!! You were in the "catbird seat"..all I had was TV and every
magazine I could lay my hands on!!! I'd be tickled to death, just to walk-up and touch her! To see her fly would almost be too much!

Shay · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:42 am

DaveM2
If you are referring to the 2 B-17s the belly landed with the P-38s. The B-17s were located first. The 1990 expedition bored down on the B-17 called "Big Stoop". The expedition determined the the aircraft were to damaged due to ice compression to be recovered. But nowadays with some aircraft being resurrected from seemingly piles of trash into prestine pieces of history, who knows they too might be worth saving considering the number of available Fortress for restoration. On a side note. Pieces of Big Stoop" were recovered. Most memorably, portions of the dorsal turret. On these pieces the gunner had painted his sweetheart's name. This sweetheart eventually became the gunners wife and the peices were presented to the widowed wife. I apologize for not remembering the gunner's name.

Shay

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:09 am

Shay, I'm curious was the chemical technique used to return the structures
to original shape..a caustic process? What I'm getting at is, did the process
"hurt" the paints? It's a given, with this scale of project..that original
"period" paint samples were saved.

RMAllnutt · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:52 am

It wouldn't have been a "chemical" process. They would most likely have been annealed (ie. reversing the tempering condition of the material from T3 to T0 state by heating it above the molecular transition point - usually to about 1100F - and then slowly cooling). This "relaxes" the work hardening caused by the original manufacture of the material, and the subsequent bending. "Relaxing" the aluminium also makes it pliable enough to re-work, without cracking (at least in theory). Once the rework was finished the parts would then have been re-heat treated to the T3 temper state again. This is accomplished by heating the material up to above the transition point in a similar manner to when it was annealed, but this time cooling it rapidly in an oil bath (ie. quenching).

Hope this helps.

Richard

Shay · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:30 pm

Thanks RMAllnutt
I couldn't really recall what kind of "process" this was. This was a question I asked Bob many moons ago. It's a wonder why more warbird restorations don't use this process, from a historical point of view. Makes me ask the question. If the German Team is successful will the restore each aircraft with the same priciples. That each aircraft is important and should be restored as accurately and as originally as possible. Or will they be used as a parts base to build like 2 good aircraft out of 5, sort of thing. I hope they take direction from the Middlesboro folks, and hold to their high quality in restoring G.G..I think I'm going to contact them ask them for a synopsis for their whole expedition. Might try have them post on here themselves.

Shay

HELLDIVERS · **Joined:** Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:38 pm **Posts:** 642

HI RICHARD IS CORRECT THE PART WILL REMAIN WORKABLE FOR ONLY ABOUT 35 MINUTES.ITS EASY TO DO IF YOU HAVE A OXY/ACC SET UP TURN ON THE GAS AN LIGHT IT .CARBON UP THE PIECE UNTIL ITS BLACK THEN TURN UP THE OXYGEN AND HEAT THE PART UP UNTIL THE BLACK DISAPEARS THEN QUENCH IT ASAP IN A BUCKET OF WATERGIVE IT A MINUTE OR TWO THEN START TO WORK IT IT WILL RETURN TO IT ORIGINAL TEMPER IN ABOUT AN HOUR NO RE HEAT TREATING IS REQUIRED. MOST A/CPARTS ARE QUENCHED IN WATER NOT OIL THANKS MIKE

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:22 pm

Shay wrote:

DaveM2
If you are referring to the 2 B-17s the belly landed with the P-38s. The B-17s were located first. The 1990 expedition bored down on the B-17 called "Big Stoop". The expedition determined the the aircraft were to damaged due to ice compression to be recovered. But nowadays with some aircraft being resurrected from seemingly piles of trash into prestine pieces of history, who knows they too might be worth saving considering the number of available Fortress for restoration. On a side note. Pieces of Big Stoop" were recovered. Most memorably, portions of the dorsal turret. On these pieces the gunner had painted his sweetheart's name. This sweetheart eventually became the gunners wife and the peices were presented to the widowed wife. I apologize for not remembering the gunner's name.

Shay

I'm thinking the fuselage would be crushed but what about the wings and main spar, I doubt they would have undergone dramatically greater stresses than the P-38's and the structure of the wings would be much more dense.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:55 pm

Shay

No I was reffering to the aircraft mentioned in the book 'Hunting Warbirds' . Two of 17s ditched in Greenland were being looked for by sonar, and they were eventually able to locate the area using old photos for comparison.

Dave

HarvardIV · **Joined:** Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1437

RMALLnut wrote:

Quote:

It wouldn't have been a "chemical" process. They would most likely have been annealed (ie. reversing the tempering condition of the material from T3 to T0 state by heating it above the molecular transition point - usually to about 1100F - and then slowly cooling).

Have you ever worked with T-0? It's like putty, and have to keep it in a freezer. You can only work with it at room temp for about 30 min if I remember right.

Chris

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:43 pm

Thank-you RMAllnut,
..for your explanation. I was aware of the oxy/acet method of
working the aluminum, but shay had mentioned a chemical process.
I was seeking clarification. The "caustics" question was a curiousity.
Later, I thought possibly of a thermal/cryo alternate process may be
possible...given shays wording. He said he'll inquire as to details later.
I am always interested into new processes used in crafting. Tekkie lust...

Some time back someone was relating the possibilities of using a
"liquified gas",(?)... pumped into a structure targeted for underwater
recovery. The theory was that that gas would form ice and lift the object.
Someone else, related that the ice would distend and rupture the artifact.
But what if one was able to "net-over" all large apertures and when
pumping the "liquified gas"...they modulated the pumping in bursts...
forming free-floating "ice cubes"? Or, what if one merely attached the netting material or bags to the artifact..and used those as "ice filled" lift bags?

Given the dexterity and sophistication of Remote Piloted Vehicles, a process such as this would extend the depths of recovery and relax human dangers.

Ya never know where the next new thing will turn up....

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