Warbird Information Exchange

No the goal isnt to have complete airplanes ready in 12 months. I know the owner of that company and several of the employees. And on top of that. they have everything built in ROMANIA. So the FIGHTER FACTORY dosnt count tward the 500,000 mustang built in the U.S. theory of yours.Do you have any other shops quoting this price?

No one in their right mind is going to give away their Mustang just to save themselves from being tagged as "greedy". Supply and demand dictate the market and nothing else - same as every other market out there. Does anyone have a '64 split-window Corvette coupe they want to give me for $10K? Come on...don't be greedy! I could build one from raw materials for that much!

Maybe there's a non-profit organization out there that would be willing to turn out brand new P-51s and sell them at cost to the disenfranchised pilots of the world.

If anyone stands to make a decent living by effectively offering P-51s at less than half the going rate, then they will do it. My guess is that R&D, shop costs, licensing, and a dozen other factors (including demand) will drive the cost right back up to that of the Mustangs currently on the market. I still believe the value of existing warbird types will generally peak out (with some exceptions) when they've reached the threshold at which one could be built from scratch. In the end, investors buy the plane - not the story that comes with it, especially since many of the warbirds flying today are just representations of their former selves.

I'm sure the basic material costs for the Flug Werk 190 is far below what they are asking, but factor in a decade of time and work for the crew, as well as all the R&D that continues to go into making a successful design. They didn't just tape the blue prints on the wall and cut sheet metal on their weekends off.

As for the $225K Corsair project in Florida; if you can put together a team in Russia who can fabricate a quality main spar section for the Corsair and keep the cost anywhere near relative to what the entire Florida project is selling for, I'll personally help you sell the first five of them at no cost to myself. Value is relative to what one actually knows about a certain aircraft. If you can truly market brand new Mustangs at 1/3 the price of an existing aircraft, then there's a massive niche market out there just screaming for the chance to buy. Makes you wonder why no investors have jumped headlong at the opportunity to make a decent profit doing this. It's probably because there's no profit to be made by doing so.

_________________
Rob Mears
'Surviving Corsairs' Historian
robcmears@yahoo.com
http://www.robmears.com

ive also spoken to the guy and your wrong

its not giving away anything, its excessive greed. nobody is saying "give your p-51 away"

and with yaks, the airframe new built from orenburg today is only $140,000 painted and test flown if you supply the engine, ok so lets say the engine is 50k thats 190k the total cost for a new yak9. so why are they being sold now for 400k? the ones built in 1995 are now 400k, they are older airframes than aircraft built today so why are they appreciating?

all it comes down too is greed, its got nothing to do with supply and demand.

you tell me the process of making the corsair spar, it couldnt be as big of a drama as you make it out or 60 years ago they wouldve built easier and cheaper aircraft.

Homer,

It doesn't really matter, so why argue about it? Other people think it costs more, you think it costs less. So why bother watse your precious time fighting it.

i agree

Actually homer,

I side both with you, and those citing supply and demand. I feel that restoring almost any radial powered warplane doesn't cost more than 60k+time, but they are then being sold for 500k. Maybe they bought the project for 300k. So they are making 200k maybe in 3 years on it, not including labor. Greedy? Maybe.. In that case I would say people making 60k per is year is just as greedy.

However, to live pretty comfortably 60k is necessary. So I guess we're all greedy then.

For a P-51, buying a project for 500k, and then overhauling the engine maybe 100k+prop 25k+20k in parts makes a grand total of 645k. Then you sell the bird for 1.25 million after 3 years of labor gives a profit of 550k in 3 years. Yes, that may be greedy.

Supply and demand, and initial high capitol investment (meaning the project is expensive) allow for this high profit. In ecomomics greed doesn't matter. You do it, because you can. Just like the big corporations.

Hey Rob,
If you do manage to find a '64 split-window Corvette then that baby will be worth a significant amount since they're not known to exist. Now a '63 split-window could be a possibility . Nothing serious meant by this correction, just a light-hearted stir.

Has been a while since we've been in touch. Hope that all is going well with the Corsair research mate and with the work on your RV. Take it easy and remember that if you ever have any Australian related queries then feel free to ask.

Cheers,
Matt

Will do, Matt! Thanks

_________________
Rob Mears
'Surviving Corsairs' Historian
robcmears@yahoo.com
http://www.robmears.com

Hey Matt, what do you reckon, $60k + time onto a boomerang project? about 1/4 the way through run out of cash simply because of storage costs while finding parts if Mathew Dennings example is any indication?

Hi Jeff,
Yeah, the Boomerang is certainly one beast that will cost more than US $60k (you won't even get a pair of outer wings for that price). While some restorations might come in at under the 60k mark I doubt that most would and I know that here in Australia that figure isn't even in the ballpark! I'm not arguing against Chris though because some restorations could possibly come in under that price.

With the Wirraway I just choose not to really think about the costs. I'm not trying to do the restoration to a price and wouldn't want to. I wish I could do it for 60k US (around 80k Australian) though!

Cheers,
Matt

How is that going btw? haven't heard anything about it in ages.

and as for doing a restoration to a budget the best example I have of that I know of would be a mate's cars. he bought 3 old and very rough model T fords. restored 2 using one for parts. built a hotrod from the remains of the third. the hotrod cost him about 1/4 the price of either of the other two despite some ridiculous prices for things like the engine ( $12,000 turbocharged V8 ).

another thought is how much would doing the restoration to a price jeopardise things like safety? you can not, to my mind, cut restoration down to a price without giving up something whether it be authenticity or safety or longevity of the item being restored.

Hey Jeff,
Unfortunately the poor old Wirraway still hasn't had all that much done on it in the form of physical work. Have essentially got all of the parts needed and am continually searching/acquiring the remaining 'trinkets' for an authentic restoration.

There's promising to be some exciting times for the project within the VERY near future however and I'm really looking forward to it. Will still be a long term project though and that is one of the reasons why it doesn't get much publicity.

Interesting story with the T model Ford restorations and with the price of T model parts these days, is understandable.

It's hard to specifically identify areas where restorations to a price might possibly have shortcomings. Obviously if the quote is high enough then it can be done to a price without any shortcomings! Authenticity is certainly a killer when it comes to the restoration cost. As an example, I was recently working on the spent cartridge and link chutes for the front machine guns. My work on these took about 15 hours and the parts do absolutely nothing towards making the aeroplane fly and/or its safety. If a professional restorer was doing the work then a realistic estimate of their hourly rate might be $50 AUD per hour. With those two figures it becomes apparent why a lot of people don't strive for high levels of authenticity!

Hope that all is well over there mate.

Cheers,
Matt

RMB, the discussion kind of went on a tangent and I am not sure you got your answer. If you are looking for a yes answer in order to justify the purchase to your wife, let me know. I've got a million reasons why they are a great investment!

If you are weighing whether to borrow money, because a good investment should exceed that cost, hence you make money, warbirds are a pretty bad investment. The basic reason is that unlike CDs and stocks, there are significant ongoing costs just to maintain the investment in the condition you bought it in. Hangaring a T-6 will run anything from $2000 to $6000 per year, depending on your location. Insurance runs about $3,500 if you have a good safety record and you intend to fly the airplane. So, you haven't left the ground yet and you are already into this beast for 5% a year. Now, if you are going to fly it, the gas is 35 gph and you can do the math on that one, depending on what avgas runs in your area. Now, you are using the airplane so you have to annual it. That will run you $1,500 to $5,000, roughly. YOu can lower that amount if you find a good sympathetic AI who will let you do the grunt work. The amount can go up significantly if the guy finds something big wrong with your investment.

So, you decide to just own the beast and not fly it. YEs, you will spend less dough in the short run. You can cut the insurance down to a grand but you still have to hangar it. You spend nothing on maintenance until it is time to sell. Now, you not only have to spend whatever it takes to fix whatever crops up because it has been sitting. Guaranteed to replace everything rubber. Just sending out your brake master cylinder for O/H is $400 plus parts. Going to do it yourself? Hope you have an A&P or a very good friend who is one. And a test stand becasue you cannot fool around with the brakes. Not on a T-6! And now, you have to convince some buyer that your airplane that has been sitting is a good investment for him/her.

I in no way want to talk anyone out of owning a warbird. I highly recommend the experience. Last Saturday, I had a truly memorable experience taking my T-6 out. The weather north of the airport had been threatening all day. It took a long time to get the airplane ready, after a long drive from my current location. I did not get airborne until 4 p.m. Most of the airport had long since headed for Miller Time. By luck and by God, the weather at the airport stayed good all day - threatening but never bad. I tell you, the rainbows, the sunrays through the gaps in the clounds, were just exquisite (sic?). You can take a T-6 out over the mesa and you are at Reno, the oak trees become pylons, and you are in first place with all the other guys chasing your tail. Then you can get some altitude and you are right up there with eagles. Aileron rolls are a piece of cake with those high roll-rate ailerons. Maybe screw up your courage and practice one of those barrel rolls or watch that water bottle hit the canopy as you go negative in your slow roll (oops!). Then head back to the airport and make the best landing you've made in years. All this can be yours. Investment you say? Yes, but not for money. For your LIFE!!!

RobC

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Rob C

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. “

– Michael Crichton

RobC - DEAD ON - there is no GOOD financial reason for me to want that F-100F in the world other than the pure joy of getting in for the ride - much like your T-6 I'd guess.

Tom P.