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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:16 pm 
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I think, that over the years that the numbers will bear out that the CAF has had more accidents than most othere warbird groups. With that being said, they also fly their planes more than any other group. Things happen sometimes. Like was stated earlier, most of these planes are over sixty years old. I would find it hard to believe that ANYONE would go out and fly a plane warbird or not in a haphazard fashion. 2007 so far has been a rough year for all the warbird community regardless of the particular group. I admit that I get angry every time I read about a warbird crash due to the loss of the aircraft but more so because of the grieving family members left behind. I've lost several friends flying warbirds and their private planes and it gets harder and harder each time. My heart sinks every time I see a news report of and airplane going down. Let's all back off of the blame game and understand that flying is inherently dangerous, just like driving a car. The better we all do our jobs and take care of those things that we can, the more we can tilt the odds in our favor and keep flying as safely as possible. Just my two cents.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:39 pm 
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The thing that I hate most with these accidents is when people jump to conclusions. We had an issue with that with the Tracker, an individual jumped to the immediate conclusion that the crew ran out of fuel which was totally inaccurate and has since been proven wrong. But the hoops that had to be jumped through, mainly by our HQ staff, just to disprove this "assumption" was time consuming and totally unnecessary if that individual would have just been quiet and let the investigators do there job. I guess is what I am trying to say is that it is nice to have a place like WIX for information about incidents/accidents but we all need to keep our speculations to ourselves till the FAA/NSTB have made there investigations public.

All of us here at the Old Dominion Squadron are glad the crew is alright and hope they have a speedy recovery.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:32 am 
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I have to say, even after a couple of days thinking about Robert Collier's post, as a CAF member and a Unit Staff Officer, I am grossly insulted. I sent Mr Collier a PM, which I know he has read, and has not responded to. This PM asked him to delete his intemperate reply. Hence, since he declined to keep it private.....

Mr Collier, I will look forward to seeing you at the next MidWinter Staff conference. I will be the fellow wearing the black cowboy hat, and I look forward to you explaining to me just exactly how your post, and the language and threats thereto, reflects well upon the CAF. Not to mention how this post squares with the member's code of conduct.....

If you have any question as to who I am, feel free to ask Gordon, or Ray K, or pretty much anyone else on General Staff. Again, sir, I am grossly insulted that you made those comments and signed as a representative of an organization to which I have donated large amounts of time effort and coin over the last decade. Had you not made a big deal out of being the DFW Wing Mx Officer, I really would not have cared *what* you posted.

About the only thing in your post I agree with is that the important thing is that the crew is OK.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:05 am 
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If we are going to have a rumble at the staff conference I will take extra efforts to be there. Come on guys its' just discussions no need to get offensive. Although that might make a less boring conference. I'll wear my referee shirt and you guys can go 3 rounds apiece.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:21 am 
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I am a CAF member, and I am concerned. I think that it can be talked about on here, just as long as it is kept respectful. I think that if this was a static museum that had destroyed this amount of aircraft, that people would be all over it, and would not be very nice about it. I think that the CAF is a great group that has some issues that need worked out. I don't think any less of that wing or the CAF as a whole because of it. I am sure that they feel bad enough about this already. They are alarge part of what started the warbird movement, and are a great organization. From time to time every organization has some issues to look after and the CAF is no different. I think that it is better to discuss it here where people that actually care about the subject can talk about it, then it is for it to be in the mass media. People are going to have tempers because this is an item here that we all love and feel passionate about. I think that we need to talk about stuff like this and learn about it what we can. Maybe it will save a life. I have learned alot form you guys on here, and I am sure that there is much more to be had.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Larry Kraus wrote:
CAPFlyer,I hadn't intended to attack you or your post.


Larry, sorry to take so long to respond to you. I honestly didn't fully read it the first time I saw it and see this line. I did not take your post as an attack on me or the post. As I said, I was quite frustrated with not only the CAF accident but several incidences at work where thankfully no one was injured but some equipment was very seriously damaged. In our case, some were due to human factors (i.e. someone screwed up) and a couple were good-old mother nature (thank you rain..... :(), but in all cases at my work, the problem was post-incident/accident communications in the past had failed to properly identify sources of problems and potential signs of problems and because of it, we had the incidents in the last month that we did. I just am concerned that this doesn't happen here because in the warbird community especially, communication is almost the only means we have to learn what happened and what we might be able to do in the future to prevent further accidents and incidents.

I'll conclude my posts for now with this from a NTSB investigator several years ago - "We learn from every accident that happens, but the ones where the crew walks away are the ones we learn the most."


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Seems to me there's room to see both sides of the issue here. Sometimes these bad events seem to come all at once... but that doesn't always mean that the issues are the same, or even related to each other. Same time, when things do happen in close proximity, it's certainly not wrong to wonder if there's a possibility of a broken link somewhere. I guess I think that those who want to speculate, or raise the issue have the responsibility to do so graciously, but those on the other side have a responsibility to not become overly defensive. There's certainly a place for protecting the honor of one's friends and people you know as well, and I respect that.
I certainly hope that the causes can be determined, and if there are any safety issues to be addressed, that people will learn from them, while at the same time having compassion for those involved. After all, even most seriously stupid people wouldn't intentionally crash a valuable plane with themselves on board unless they have some sort of death wish. I have no doubt that the guys involved, whether or not they had anything to do with the cause of the crash, will always wonder if there was something that they could've done differently, and if they're still able to fly, will be safer pilots for it, as will others around them.
One other thing is that you have to balance the risk inherent in flying the old aircraft, and training new crews, or keeping crews proficient, and whenever you have as big of an organization as the CAF, you multiply the visibility of that risk because of the numbers involved and the differences between squadrons. You've got basically a volunteer organization, with big money, and big expenses involved, varying levels of pilot skill, mechanics, etc... I'm convinced that deep down, almost everyone would say that safety is #1, but there's never going to be a lack of risk - it's people turning the wrenches, and manipulating the yokes.
There may be other museums and flight organizations that may have troubles (I'm not implying that the CAF does) just as bad, bigger, or worse, but because of their size, they may never show up, due to the hand of Providence, or they may just not fly enough for their mistakes to catch up with them.
I for one am grateful that the guys I fly with at ALS took a chance on me and took the risk of letting me learn to fly the L-birds. With any aircraft, especially the older ones, every flight runs some risk, the key is to fly as safely as you know how, follow good procedures and checklists, get to know your mechanics, manage the risks, learn from the mistakes you live through, and try like crazy to avoid other mistakes. Learning to fly IFR, you learn that there are some kinds of mistakes you personally cannot learn from - like hitting mountains, CFIT, graveyard spirals, etc... others may learn from them, but I don't want to be their teaching tool.
I think that most of us here would rather see the planes fly than rot in some museum, but my personal opinion is that events like this is are a price that we will probably continue to pay as long as warbirds are flying in any significant numbers. Do we have to, maybe, and maybe not. Human factors may be able to be reduced (who knows how much...), but you will always have the possibility of mechanical issues as well.
At least the guys got out this time. Thank the Lord.

Ryan

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:22 pm 
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Well said, until you got to the part that you said that aircraft are going to rot in museums. Ouch!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:38 pm 
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mustangdriver wrote:
Well said, until you got to the part that you said that aircraft are going to rot in museums. Ouch!


Sorry, but I guess I'm a bit cynical about it.
I just got through stopping in on a local museum. They don't get much traffic, aren't too visible, the condition of the aircraft is NOT currently improving, and I don't see anything changing overnight, and this is in what used to be Military City, USA... And I don't have the energy or time to do much of anything about it personally.
There are good museums out there, and I applaud them, but not every warbird goes to a good home when it "retires" from flying. They don't seem to earn their keep too well when they're static. Just an observation.
At the local museum, it's not for a lack of desire to keep the airplanes up, or even neglect, it's just not much of a business if you ask me.

Ryan

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:52 pm 
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Yeah some museum birds can be in rough shape, although some of them would be scrap if it wasn't for the museum. I am a fan of the even balance.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:20 pm 
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mustangdriver wrote:
Yeah some museum birds can be in rough shape, although some of them would be scrap if it wasn't for the museum. I am a fan of the even balance.


I agree, better preserved in some shaped than scrapped. I like balance as well.

Ryan

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The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Update please. Crew and aircraft

Shay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:43 pm 
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According to a friend that lives in Colorado, he said the crew were treated and released from the hospital and are ok. I don't know about the plane though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:19 am 
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We do have an FAA Accident report, but nothing yet from the NTSB. I figure it'll be a few more weeks at least before we get something there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:10 pm 
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http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20070730X01039&ntsbno=DEN07LA122&akey=1
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DEN07LA122
On July 19, 2007, approximately 0900 mountain daylight time, a Beech C-45H, N9562Z, piloted by an airline transport-certificated pilot, was destroyed when it struck trees and impacted terrain following a dual engine loss of power while maneuvering near Longmont, Colorado. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The local instructional flight was being conducted under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 without a flight plan. The airline transport (ATP) certificated instructor pilot was seriously injured, and the ATP pilot receiving instruction received minor injuries. The flight originated at Platte Valley Airpark (18V), Hudson, Colorado, approximately 0845, and was en route to Boulder Airport (1V5) Boulder, Colorado.

A witness pbserved the airplane flying at low level about 200 feet and descending. It made a turn to the west, leveled off, then descended sharply. The engines appeared to be "stopped." The airplane flew between two large trees, clipping the left tree. The airplane then impacted an open field. Upon impact with the ground, both engines separated from the airframe. The airplane slid across the field, struck a power pole, slid across a road, and came to rest. There was a post-impact fire

According to accident reports submitted by the two pilots, they had planned to fly to Boulder, Colorado, and while en route, they would practice abnormal and emergency procedures. They spent about 1-1/2 hours preflighting the airplane, then departed Platte Valley Airport. During the flight, the right engine was shut down and the propeller feathered. It was subsequently restarted, but the left engine started "running very rough suddenly, and vibrated excessively." The left engine was shut down and the propeller feathered. Level flight was maintained from power produced by the right engine. "Thinking the left engine might still be able to produce thrust, we restarted the left engine," the instructor wrote. Instead of producing thrust, the engine produced more drag so it was secured again. Then the right engine began losing power. Full power was applied but the airplane continued to descend. The instructor's intention was to land on Niwot Road or in the adjacent field. He lowered the landing gear and while the gear was in-transit, the airplane clipped the tops of trees. The instructor was able to guide the airplane between two houses. It impacted an open field, slid 310 feet before bouncing across County Line Road, struck and downed a power pole, and slid another 40 feet before coming to a stop. There was a post-impact fire. The two pilots evacuated the airplane via the main cabin door. The airplane came to rest in the southwest corner of the intersection of County Line Road and Niwot Road (County Road 16).

Upon hearing of the accident, the mechanic who maintained the airplane went out to where the airplane had been parked. There were two pools of oil in the run-up area, and trails of oil led out onto the runway.

The airplane was recovered and transported to Beegles Aircraft Services, Greeley, Colorado, where, on July 24, 2007, both engines were partially disassembled and examined. There was evidence indicating both engines had failed catastrophically due to oil starvation. The left engine crankshaft was broken and all the piston heads were at the tops of their cylinders. Pieces of metal, including pieces of piston rings, were recovered from the right engine oil sump.

According to the airplane operator, Commemorative Air Force, the drain valve in the Engine Rocker Box Recovery System (Saf-Air oil drain valve p/n 00880), used to prevent hydraulic lock and minimize oil clean-up, is opened when the collection vessel is attached after flight. During preflight, the recovery vessel is removed and the valve closed. The internal barrel of the Saf-Air lock open oil drain valve on the left engine was found in the nearly closed position, and the internal barrel on the right engine was in the open position. The open/close lock control on the valves is on the external part of the valves and these external parts were sheared off both engines at impact. According to FAA's airworthiness inspector, the drains are not approved for installation in the Pratt & Whitney R-985 engines (as installed on the Beech C-45).

The pilot was later interviewed by telephone. He stated that when they preflighted the airplane, the drain valves were open (the drained oil is captured and recycled). He thought they had closed both valves. According to the Commemorative Air Force, either the pilot failed to close the drain valves or they were jammed in the open position, but the latter would be unlikely "because you can feel the valve move when you close it."


Are the guys getting better? Anyone know how they are doing?


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