Heads Up on the taxiway
Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:19 am
I had a fairly close call at Oshkosh as I was about to taxi from one parking area to another. It shows how one has to be careful whenever the prop is turning and the value of all the volunteers who help to be vigilant. I wasn't going flying, just moving from the rear parking area over to a spot closer to the flight line. As I pulled out onto the taxiway, the tug moved the B-17 in front of me, so I had to shut down for a few minutes while the way was cleared. I was chatting with Steve on my left and there were marshallers all around since no one else was moving. They got the B-17 clear, I called "clear prop" and Steve on my left said OK. Just as I was reaching for the start button I looked to my right and Alec yelled "NO"!!! I had my helment on, but had no doubt what he said. A moment later the gator emerged from under my prop where I could not see it . I don't know if it scared Dean, but it give me a real start. The prop might have cleared them, and it would probably have not fired on the first blade, but you never know. It could have been a horrible result on a nice day. Thanks Alec
Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:29 am
I believe there was a clip of this on You Tube. I'll see if I can find it.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:32 am
Here is the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iaQAR2-7To
In the description it says this was taken right after what you (Bill) described above.
In the description it says this was taken right after what you (Bill) described above.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:23 pm
Shows the importance of marshallers, always be on your toes. I'll have to remind the photo guys next time they get mad at me cause they didn't get the shot they wanted!
Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:38 pm
Allow me to step on the soapbox...
It sounds like some basic safety training needs to be given to the folks who are issued the Gators.
One should never park a vehicle outside the sight of the pilot in such close quarters and the prop should always be treated as hot. I generally avoid the prop arc even when in the hangar, but that sometimes cannot be avoided during maintenance. I never violate that space when someone is in the cockpit.
Why would someone approach an airplane with such limited visibility from the front when there is a reasonable expectiation that the aircraft might need to move in the immediate future? It is just too risky- not just for the prop but for the wing or even the empennage. All it takes is for the pilot to accidentally bump the starter and the prop could turn or the engine could start (especially if the pilot had primed and was ready to start anyhow).
I think it is a reasonable expectation that the prop will move when there is a pilot or crew member in the cockpit therefore the prop arc should never be violated. I know however that it is always tempting for a lazy guy like me to avoid leaving the vehicle and walking 1/2 a Spitfire wingspan to talk to someone.
EAA Oshkosh has had so many prop strikes in the past 10 years in the warbirds area you would think that they would have instituted some rules or training by now. Maybe to recognize the need for training is an admission that there is a problem?
It sounds like some basic safety training needs to be given to the folks who are issued the Gators.
One should never park a vehicle outside the sight of the pilot in such close quarters and the prop should always be treated as hot. I generally avoid the prop arc even when in the hangar, but that sometimes cannot be avoided during maintenance. I never violate that space when someone is in the cockpit.
Why would someone approach an airplane with such limited visibility from the front when there is a reasonable expectiation that the aircraft might need to move in the immediate future? It is just too risky- not just for the prop but for the wing or even the empennage. All it takes is for the pilot to accidentally bump the starter and the prop could turn or the engine could start (especially if the pilot had primed and was ready to start anyhow).
I think it is a reasonable expectation that the prop will move when there is a pilot or crew member in the cockpit therefore the prop arc should never be violated. I know however that it is always tempting for a lazy guy like me to avoid leaving the vehicle and walking 1/2 a Spitfire wingspan to talk to someone.
EAA Oshkosh has had so many prop strikes in the past 10 years in the warbirds area you would think that they would have instituted some rules or training by now. Maybe to recognize the need for training is an admission that there is a problem?
Re: Close call on the taxiway
Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:43 pm
"I called "clear prop" and Steve on my left said OK."
I will add this to what BDK said (which is on the mark). I'm not sure who "Steve" is but he needs to be sent back to basic marshalling training, What the devil was he doing telling you "Clear" when the prop was not. We have always trained our guys to do a 360 degree sweep of the aircraft BEFORE uttering a word. We make it clear that the pilot is ASKING if the prop is clear because he cannot see if it is or not. More importantly never think he is telling you to clear the prop because he is going to crank. True it is his (or her) airplane BUT it's on your ramp and as the marshaller, you are in control, not the other way around. It takes an assertive mind to be a useful, safe marshaller. "Yes People" will get you into trouble out there faster than you can blink an eye.
John
I will add this to what BDK said (which is on the mark). I'm not sure who "Steve" is but he needs to be sent back to basic marshalling training, What the devil was he doing telling you "Clear" when the prop was not. We have always trained our guys to do a 360 degree sweep of the aircraft BEFORE uttering a word. We make it clear that the pilot is ASKING if the prop is clear because he cannot see if it is or not. More importantly never think he is telling you to clear the prop because he is going to crank. True it is his (or her) airplane BUT it's on your ramp and as the marshaller, you are in control, not the other way around. It takes an assertive mind to be a useful, safe marshaller. "Yes People" will get you into trouble out there faster than you can blink an eye.
John
Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:07 pm
You can see the cart in front (blindspot) of the spit in the video. 
Not too smart on a hot ramp. IMHO
Why can't people walk anymore?
Was there not one marshall in control of the ramp to start you, taxi you and pass you?
Not too smart on a hot ramp. IMHO
Why can't people walk anymore?
Was there not one marshall in control of the ramp to start you, taxi you and pass you?
"clear"
Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:27 pm
John, Rogue, you guys have gotten the wrong idea. Perhaps I did not write the account clear enough. There was no fault for the marshallers, all of them were doing their job. Steve, Alec, and Dean are just three of the many volunteers helping keep everyone safe. Let me try again. I was parked in the grass at the west side of the P-51/Fighter area. To avoid sitting on the ground running at the start of the show which some other pilots do, I like to taxi out near the departure runway and park in advance. So,with help from the marshallers, I started up and turned around to taxi east, just as the tug moved the B-17 across the other end. No big deal, no danger, no hurry, I just shut down for aboout 10 minutes. When the B-17 was moved, I said "clear", looking at Steve who is correctly positioned at the left wing, and recieved an ok from him. Just then, just as I was about to push the start button, Alec on the right wing saw the Gator pull near the prop and stopped me. Dean was driving the Gator to escort, as he should be. Maybe he got in the blind spot, or a little too close. That is not my point! I just wanted to thank Alec for his alertness and point out how careful we need to be with props all the time and how valuable all the volunteers are. We do not need to look for someone to blame, as you can see by the video when I did start up , everything was clear.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:42 pm
Quote from the video:
Bill, does this desciption sound accurate? Maybe the photographer assessed the situation incorrectly. The fact that the marshaller had to motion you to abort the start though indicates that there was an unsafe (or at least questionable) situation during your start sequence.
Alert ground crews prevented a problem seconds before this was filmed. A ground operations manager was conferring with the team making sure the prop was clear. As the manager went to drive away, he drove into the area of the prop arc. The team immediately shouted out to the pilot to stop his engine start sequence.
Bill, does this desciption sound accurate? Maybe the photographer assessed the situation incorrectly. The fact that the marshaller had to motion you to abort the start though indicates that there was an unsafe (or at least questionable) situation during your start sequence.
Re: "clear"
Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:54 am
Bill Greenwood wrote:John, Rogue, you guys have gotten the wrong idea. Perhaps I did not write the account clear enough. There was no fault for the marshallers, all of them were doing their job. Steve, Alec, and Dean are just three of the many volunteers helping keep everyone safe. Let me try again. I was parked in the grass at the west side of the P-51/Fighter area. To avoid sitting on the ground running at the start of the show which some other pilots do, I like to taxi out near the departure runway and park in advance. So,with help from the marshallers, I started up and turned around to taxi east, just as the tug moved the B-17 across the other end. No big deal, no danger, no hurry, I just shut down for aboout 10 minutes. When the B-17 was moved, I said "clear", looking at Steve who is correctly positioned at the left wing, and recieved an ok from him. Just then, just as I was about to push the start button, Alec on the right wing saw the Gator pull near the prop and stopped me. Dean was driving the Gator to escort, as he should be. Maybe he got in the blind spot, or a little too close. That is not my point! I just wanted to thank Alec for his alertness and point out how careful we need to be with props all the time and how valuable all the volunteers are. We do not need to look for someone to blame, as you can see by the video when I did start up , everything was clear.
I see. Thanks for the clarification Bill. I can't open Youtube from work so I was responding to what you had written. I obviously misinterpreted what you wrote.
John
Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:43 pm
I think its great that Bill was paying attention to the marshallers. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a pilot yell clear and start cranking no matter what or where a marshaller is. Why have em if you ain't going to use em. Proper sequence..... yell clear the prop not once but twice, look right then left, back to the right then back to the left and pay attention to what the marshaller says. If no marshaller the two looks and yells are far better than the one cursory yell and crank. I have been on both sides of the prop for over 30 years and am still amazed at what stupid things people do with that big man eating cuazinart.
Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:22 am
Obergrafeter wrote:I think its great that Bill was paying attention to the marshallers.
Me too!
As Bill will recall, that was my comment at NWOC - we are here to help. If we tell you to stop, we have a reason. If you do not like what we are telling you to do, please feel free to stop, and we will come discuss your reservations, and work out a plan that makes everyone happy. Please DO NOT just ignore us and go your own way.
In particular - if you can see that we are leading in one direction and you know that you will 'eventually' end up in a certain place, please do not take off on an un-escorted 'cross country' - your prop may come into contact with an obstacle that we are leading you around, which you are not able to see at this point. When this happens, please do not write nasty letters to the editor of Warbirds magazine complaining about the ground crew.
Now my turn to say [rant off]
letter
Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:33 am
P-51d fltln; I am not sure if you are talking about me, but I don't think I have ever written a letter to Warbirds compaining about the ground crew. On the contrary, I think they do a fine job at Osh, and for John Beyl a fine job at Wings Over The North as well as Midland. My post seems to have been interpreted opposite to what intended.
Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:20 pm
[
Me too!
As Bill will recall, that was my comment at NWOC - we are here to help. If we tell you to stop, we have a reason. If you do not like what we are telling you to do, please feel free to stop, and we will come discuss your reservations, and work out a plan that makes everyone happy. Please DO NOT just ignore us and go your own way.
In particular - if you can see that we are leading in one direction and you know that you will 'eventually' end up in a certain place, please do not take off on an un-escorted 'cross country' - your prop may come into contact with an obstacle that we are leading you around, which you are not able to see at this point. When this happens, please do not write nasty letters to the editor of Warbirds magazine complaining about the ground crew.
Now my turn to say [rant off][/quote]
Somebody wrote a letter ? Do tell!
Me too!
As Bill will recall, that was my comment at NWOC - we are here to help. If we tell you to stop, we have a reason. If you do not like what we are telling you to do, please feel free to stop, and we will come discuss your reservations, and work out a plan that makes everyone happy. Please DO NOT just ignore us and go your own way.
In particular - if you can see that we are leading in one direction and you know that you will 'eventually' end up in a certain place, please do not take off on an un-escorted 'cross country' - your prop may come into contact with an obstacle that we are leading you around, which you are not able to see at this point. When this happens, please do not write nasty letters to the editor of Warbirds magazine complaining about the ground crew.
Now my turn to say [rant off][/quote]
Somebody wrote a letter ? Do tell!
Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:41 pm
bdk wrote:I generally avoid the prop arc even when in the hangar, but that sometimes cannot be avoided during maintenance.
I have that "trauma" too....
Since I very nearly walked into a prop attached to an engine which was about to be started after some maintenance, I even don't approach a propeller when I'm near an aircraft in a museum....
Tillerman.