ACE Question
Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:42 am
Ok, I am more of the aircraft historical person and not so much on the ACE thing.
I was watching last night, of course, "Dogfights" on my DVR and was watching the episode on the low level dogfighting.
Of course they showed some great action from Robin Olds Vietnam days and it just slapped me in the face with this weird question about being an Ace.
Ok, so you have an F-4 Phantom and you have a RIO, and he is helping you lock up all the aircraft you are about to blow the piss out of in front of you.
You as the pilot manage to get a good tone and blam, you kill 5 birds in say a month.
Your now an Ace. What is the RIO? Does he not get a part of the glory of helping you lock targets and get kills two? Is there a terminology for a backseater for an Ace pilot?
I dont know why I thought if that, I just thought, how messed it is, to be a backseater, with a top pilot and your helping him kick some a$$ and he gets the glory?
Thoughts?
I was watching last night, of course, "Dogfights" on my DVR and was watching the episode on the low level dogfighting.
Of course they showed some great action from Robin Olds Vietnam days and it just slapped me in the face with this weird question about being an Ace.
Ok, so you have an F-4 Phantom and you have a RIO, and he is helping you lock up all the aircraft you are about to blow the piss out of in front of you.
You as the pilot manage to get a good tone and blam, you kill 5 birds in say a month.
Your now an Ace. What is the RIO? Does he not get a part of the glory of helping you lock targets and get kills two? Is there a terminology for a backseater for an Ace pilot?
I dont know why I thought if that, I just thought, how messed it is, to be a backseater, with a top pilot and your helping him kick some a$$ and he gets the glory?
Thoughts?
Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:40 am
There's no question (if you ask the pilots involved) that the RIO or WSO were absolutely an essential "part" of the victory(ies).
Cunningham, Ritchie and other two-seater pilot aces all have willingly 'shared' credit over the years on TV and in print with their guy in back. F-4 backseaters Chuck DeBellevue (USAF), Jeffrey Feinstein (USAF), and Willy Driscoll (USN) all "made ace", at least that's what they were and are called by many, and have been featured as such prominently in special interest pubs and television programs.
I believe that DeBellevue actually came back and went through UPT and ended up flying F-4s and F-15s, but don't quote me on that.
There are many other cases of backseaters like Steve Croker (2 kills with Robin Olds) who didn't necessarily "make ace" in the 5-kill sense, but for scoring a victory they received the same "Phantom Club" certificates from McDonnell Douglas as the pilots did. Croker's is signed by Olds himself, and it's one his most cherished possessions (I saw it in Lt Gen Croker's office when he was 8AF/CC). Croker and Olds, BTW, used the Air Force Museum's Phantom #829 for their kills (their actual helmets are, or were, on that plane).
Croker case brings up another wrinkle: in the early days some of the backseaters, like Croker, were actually rated qualified-in-the-Phantom pilots, and are officially listed as "copilot", though their duties at the time in question were of course identical to a RIO or WSO, though I think putting "pilots in the backseat" was mainly an AF thing until they realized they didn't "need" pilots back there in combat as they originally thought.
The "last word" in regards to ace matters, at least according to the American Fighter Aces Association, resides with the peerless Frank Olynyk. Vol. 10 (USA - Post WWII) of his "aerial victories" series lists all of the WSO and RIO victories, but the 5-kill (or more) backseater types are NOT considered "aces", by Olynyk, i.e., their victories are detailed, but each of their final scorecards is 0/0/0 - no confirmed, no probable, no damaged credits.
EDIT: I just checked the Air Force Historical Research Agency site, http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/avc/avc.asp, and the Air Force backseaters are all credited with their victories. As to your original question, "Are they Aces?", well, 5 or more official credits generally makes you an ace, but I think the best way to refer to them when it comes to the Pilot-WSO/RIO team is "Pilot Ace" or "Backseater Ace". In any case, as indicated, the AF officially credits them with the kills, so there you go.
Wade
Cunningham, Ritchie and other two-seater pilot aces all have willingly 'shared' credit over the years on TV and in print with their guy in back. F-4 backseaters Chuck DeBellevue (USAF), Jeffrey Feinstein (USAF), and Willy Driscoll (USN) all "made ace", at least that's what they were and are called by many, and have been featured as such prominently in special interest pubs and television programs.
I believe that DeBellevue actually came back and went through UPT and ended up flying F-4s and F-15s, but don't quote me on that.
There are many other cases of backseaters like Steve Croker (2 kills with Robin Olds) who didn't necessarily "make ace" in the 5-kill sense, but for scoring a victory they received the same "Phantom Club" certificates from McDonnell Douglas as the pilots did. Croker's is signed by Olds himself, and it's one his most cherished possessions (I saw it in Lt Gen Croker's office when he was 8AF/CC). Croker and Olds, BTW, used the Air Force Museum's Phantom #829 for their kills (their actual helmets are, or were, on that plane).
Croker case brings up another wrinkle: in the early days some of the backseaters, like Croker, were actually rated qualified-in-the-Phantom pilots, and are officially listed as "copilot", though their duties at the time in question were of course identical to a RIO or WSO, though I think putting "pilots in the backseat" was mainly an AF thing until they realized they didn't "need" pilots back there in combat as they originally thought.
The "last word" in regards to ace matters, at least according to the American Fighter Aces Association, resides with the peerless Frank Olynyk. Vol. 10 (USA - Post WWII) of his "aerial victories" series lists all of the WSO and RIO victories, but the 5-kill (or more) backseater types are NOT considered "aces", by Olynyk, i.e., their victories are detailed, but each of their final scorecards is 0/0/0 - no confirmed, no probable, no damaged credits.
EDIT: I just checked the Air Force Historical Research Agency site, http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/avc/avc.asp, and the Air Force backseaters are all credited with their victories. As to your original question, "Are they Aces?", well, 5 or more official credits generally makes you an ace, but I think the best way to refer to them when it comes to the Pilot-WSO/RIO team is "Pilot Ace" or "Backseater Ace". In any case, as indicated, the AF officially credits them with the kills, so there you go.
Wade
Last edited by Chicoartist on Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
???
Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:57 am
Anyone remember the names of Carroll Smith's or Paul Smith's ROs?
Re: ???
Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:39 am
Jack Cook wrote:Anyone remember the names of Carroll Smith's or Paul Smith's ROs?
Exactly! They do not get the glory of the pilot!
??
Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:27 am
I do.
Tierney and Klopsell (sp)
Tierney and Klopsell (sp)
Re: ??
Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:51 pm
Jack Cook wrote:I do.
Tierney and Klopsell (sp)
I knew you would!
