Warbird Information Exchange

From yesterday’s AvWeb email:



Link to rest of article.

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Commemorative Air Force
Experimental Aircraft Association
Warbirds of America

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you can't sugar coat history. surely not every vet squawked, probably some one high in the canadian govt, broke a few balls to get the change. this sanitizing history thing is a huge mistake, those guys were no more war criminals than bambi. war is not pretty. the geneva convention set the rules, the allies for the most part respected them. mistakes were made yes, but they were not blatant, not the case for the ww 2 axis!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

If the Allied bombing of civilian targets was a war crime, primary blame should be directed at the leaders who assigned these targets rather than the crews who flew the missions. Were civilians targeted primarily as part of a terror or psychological campaign, or were their deaths part of the results of bombing large cities? Think of attacking the US in 1945: Targets would have to be port areas like New York, L A, New Orleans, Galveston, as well as auto producing areas like Detroit, steel in Cleveland, Pittsburg, govt in Washington. Not much benefit in bombing Alpine, Texas. Each of these industrial targets would have resulted in civilan deaths also, but probably would not be condidered war crimes. However, any historically accurate display of a bombing campaign should be factual, as to civilian deaths and production destroyed, with no sugar coating, War, even for the right reasons can be awful, and it is good that the Allies as civilized people live with their conscience, rather than pretending something did not happen.


l

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I followed the link and read the rest of the article. Here's the portion that describes the plaque:

As a veteran of 35 bombing missions with the 8th Air Force, 91st Bomb Group, I can testify that all missions, bar none, were briefed for a military or industrial target. It is true that many of these targets were erected in areas adjacent to civlian housing, schools, hospitals, etc., and were thus subject to severe collateral damage. The concept of pinpoint bombing achieved at 5000 feet on a calm clear day over Arizona, was much less attainable from 25000 feet over German flak filled skies, often through heavy cloud coverage and varying wind.conditions.
Furthermore, any attempts at moral judgments of the Allied war effort through the lens of 2007 ideology inevitably results in a blurred, distorted image.

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b17sam
35 B17 missions (9/6/44 Ludwigshafen to 2/3/45 Berlin)
click on http://www.b17sam.com

As an Ottawa resident and Canadian I have been following this discussion/battle with great interest ever since the museum opened at the new location. I am disappointed as to how it turned out. Crews followed orders, commands set the targets and shedule. Even when considering that I don't think the command chain can be blamed for targetting sites close to civilians. The allies didn't start the war, but they sure finished it. It was also a very different time. My grandmother who spent her late teen years following the events of the second world war said "It was a matter of kill or be killed." I consider her to be one of the kindest rational people I know, and she knew the hand that was delt.

I am dissappointed how this issue has turned out with the museum. The bomb campaigns were as described. I don't think there is any shame in saying exactly that.

Mike

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Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
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Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
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How would a survivor of Dresden feel about the plaque?

"How on earth could we have let someone like Hitler take control."

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

As a Canadian, I am extremely upset by the insinuation contained within the wording of the plaque. Why didn't they tell the world that we were/are a volunteer military - then they could really make us look like assassins.

As a military historian who came up through the ranks the hard way (with a high school education), I get the impression that this plaque was worded by a PhD who never wore a uniform.

I'm getting tired of apologizing for my country having to defend itself.

Doug

Personally, I feel that the wording on the plaque sounds almost apologetic, which somewhat offends me, and should offend the memory of those who served and died fighting against Hitler and his minions.

"Bomber Command's aim was to crush civilian morale and force Germany to surrender by destroying its cities and industrial installations". Sounds like Bomber Command's aim was to win the war by disabling its enemy. Perhaps we should have sent in individual special forces teams to root out each and every cottage-industry level workshop until the war was over. That and lots of leaflets would have done the job much more cleanly, without all that needless waste of life.

And the guy from Dresden should have a chat with a guy from London...

gv

Sounds like that the Museum must of hired somebody from the Washington DC Museum that was part of the Enola Gay Display ! Even though the Dispaly was set up in such away that no one should be offened it was because the Museum staff kept telling everybody that they were sorry and even told a Japanese Anbasdor that when he can to see the Museum in general . that drew such a fuss of the A bombs being drop on Japan ! made it out like it was the United States Fault that Pearl Harbor was attacked ! IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL THE SO CALLED History no it alls will reright History as we know it ! My Sons Jr High History Book states that their was only 10 State that Joined the Confederate States Of America What Happen to the other three states ? That are supposely in the Stars and Bars Flag were they just added to make it even ?

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Always Keep Em Flying !

Glen

Lookie Capt Jim! Wham! Wham! ...............................Termights

I am with you. And thank you for your service. Because of you and the many others like you, I can write this in English.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

War crime my ass..............makes my blood boil, the Germans started the concept of mass bombing of civilian areas when they started bombing London, Coventry, Bristol etc in 1940/41.

You wouldn't have found many people in the UK during WW2 who would NOT have wanted to do the same back and more once we got the chance. My Mother can still recall vividly having to run to the air-raid shelters and sit tight while listening to the thud and crump of exploding bombs thinking the next one will get them.......

And as for Dresden, I'll relate a little storey about that. About 25 years ago I my then boss at work I found out had been a Lancaster Navigator. He seemed reluctant to talk at all about his wartime service, but many vets don't so I didn't think much of it. Years later after he retired I found out from our secretary, who had been his secretary at the time, that he had been on the Dresden raid. How did she know....?
Because she was German, and he knew she had been a little girl living in Dresden at the time of the raid, and so had to speek to her about it.............
She however, had thought the world of him as a boss, and never held a grudge, and as she said to me on the subject, "It was the price we (meaning Germany) had to pay"

Actually, the Germans began this practice in Spain. Guernica, to be precise. Bombed the craddle of Basque Nationalism to terrorize the basques. German "Kultur" to put it succintly.

The Italians were not far behind in the practice of this way to wage war, when they subjugated the Ethiopians with bombings and with gas attacks....

Tulio

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Why take the best part of life out of your life, when you can have life with the best part of your life in your life?

I am one of them 'futbol' people.

Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you have learned to speak English.

Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

Here's a thought: Maybe if the Germans (or Japanese) didn't allow their government(s) to drag them into a worldwide conflagration, they wouldn't have had their cities burned to the ground. These people didn't seem overly bothered when their respective air forces started bombing population centers of questionable military importance (Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Shanghai, and scores of others). I guess we're supposed to feel bad because we did it far better than they did? WTF?????

War is a very brutal and ugly business. It's about exterting more force against your enemy than he can exert on you. Outside the very vague limits imposed by international law, pretty much anything else goes. Kill a couple hundred thousand (innocent?) people along the way? Tough cr@p. It's a war not a friggin football game. This misguided concept of a humane war and/or a fair fight is a load of BS and best left to fantasy writers and Hollywood 'docu-dramas'.

No. No. Given the technology available to them, and viewed from the context of the day, the aircrew did exactly what was asked of them and did it remarkably well.