WW2 RAAF Aircrew Denied Honourable Burial
Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:33 pm
Hi all, I am not sure if this is the right spot on this forum for this story, but it is a true story that needs to be told nevertheless and is a good example that proves that it doesn't matter how thorough you are, you can still hit a brick wall......
Since 1999 I have researched numerous stories and events about missing Australian servicemen from World War Two. As a result of this research I have been able to prove the location of a missing Wirraway aircraft, number A20-506 with its missing RAAF aircrew. The names of the missing crew are Arthur Ruge and George Moore. The events of their demise are as follows;
On Tuesday 23 June 1942 Ruge took off from Mildura (Victoria) airbase with Moore as his rear gunner for a training exercise over Lake Victoria (NSW). A short time after arriving over the lake Ruge encountered problems with the aircraft and was last seen crashing into Lake Victoria with Moore. A search of the lake at that time failed to locate the missing aircraft or the men. Both have been listed as having no known grave since.
Ruge was the son of a Queensland Cane farmer. At the outbreak of war he enlisted into the RAAF and gained his wings. He was transferred to Singapore shortly before the Japanese invaded. Ruge escaped and returned to Australia were he underwent further training at 2 Operational Training Unit at Mildura. Moore was an Irish immigrant who came to Australia just before the outbreak of War in Europe. He was one of two children, his younger brother being a Catholic Priest and working in remote areas of western NSW.
Since 2000 I have made numerous attempts to gain permission from the traditional owners of the Lake to conduct a search and possible recovery of these men. Over several meetings with Elders and State government representatives, who collectively make up the Advisory Committee, I developed a recovery proposal that was finally submitted to this committee in May 2002. Our proposal was refused for “Cultural Heritage” reasons, although this has never been explained to me. Essentially the committee has said it is not prepared to allow me onto the Lake because we would need to travel across the Lakes foreshore, which, in some areas, is said to contain significant burial sites.
While I have argued that a search of the lake using electronic sonar’s would not adversely impact on these burial sites I have been advised, “these two fellas are not important enough”. This response has made me absolutely furious and the treatment I have received from state government representatives can only be described as disgusting. To simply say these men are insignificant is most disturbing and, I believe is an attack on the very principals of what we are about in this country, mateship. These men have been forgotten and left for 60 years and until this research came along the committee was happy to ignore the historical connection that exists between the Lake and the Mildura air base. We have gained support from the living next of kin yet this is not enough. We then got told we needed the approval of the Department of Defence, we got that too and still this was not good enough. Then the committee said we could go on the lake provided we did not cross the foreshore. I addressed this and still they said no. Each time I have been to the committee they have changed the criteria.
As mentioned, in May 2002 I attended a meeting with the committee and during this meeting, I was informed that the committee believed that should I be successful in recovering the missing Wirraway aircraft, its market value would be in the vicinity of about $1 million Australian Dollars. Several members then asked who I would sell it too and how much money I would make. This clearly identified to me the focus of their intentions. In addition to this, during this same time period, an environmental impact study was completed for use by the lake management committee, in this report are photographs of wirraway wreckage located by several anthropologists. I was given assurances that this information, along with photographs of the wreckage, would be forwarded to the Department of Defence - Airforce so that they could consider the evidence. To my knowledge this has never been done and this information and location of this wreckage has been withheld.
It is clear to me and my associates that we have been exposed to some double standards. The lake is less than 30 feet deep, I have the electronic equipment available to conduct the search at no cost to any Government Departments. We have gained written support from the National President of the RSL and the Chief of Air Force. All of this obtained as ongoing requests by the committee however; the most disturbing contradiction was, that if we got the permission of the families then they would not object to the proposal. Now, after months of trying to rally Federal Government support I once again discover these men have been neglected. Still I will continue to push this story with the hope that there maybe a change in mindset that will one day allow these men to be recovered.
This is not meant to be an attack against any individuals but an attack against a system that is only prepared to acknowledge the rights of the most powerful groups. These men deserve an honourable burial. The families have indicated quite clearly their desires to have their loved ones returned to them.
If anyone can assist me with this situation please contact me via this forum.
Thanks
Digger
Since 1999 I have researched numerous stories and events about missing Australian servicemen from World War Two. As a result of this research I have been able to prove the location of a missing Wirraway aircraft, number A20-506 with its missing RAAF aircrew. The names of the missing crew are Arthur Ruge and George Moore. The events of their demise are as follows;
On Tuesday 23 June 1942 Ruge took off from Mildura (Victoria) airbase with Moore as his rear gunner for a training exercise over Lake Victoria (NSW). A short time after arriving over the lake Ruge encountered problems with the aircraft and was last seen crashing into Lake Victoria with Moore. A search of the lake at that time failed to locate the missing aircraft or the men. Both have been listed as having no known grave since.
Ruge was the son of a Queensland Cane farmer. At the outbreak of war he enlisted into the RAAF and gained his wings. He was transferred to Singapore shortly before the Japanese invaded. Ruge escaped and returned to Australia were he underwent further training at 2 Operational Training Unit at Mildura. Moore was an Irish immigrant who came to Australia just before the outbreak of War in Europe. He was one of two children, his younger brother being a Catholic Priest and working in remote areas of western NSW.
Since 2000 I have made numerous attempts to gain permission from the traditional owners of the Lake to conduct a search and possible recovery of these men. Over several meetings with Elders and State government representatives, who collectively make up the Advisory Committee, I developed a recovery proposal that was finally submitted to this committee in May 2002. Our proposal was refused for “Cultural Heritage” reasons, although this has never been explained to me. Essentially the committee has said it is not prepared to allow me onto the Lake because we would need to travel across the Lakes foreshore, which, in some areas, is said to contain significant burial sites.
While I have argued that a search of the lake using electronic sonar’s would not adversely impact on these burial sites I have been advised, “these two fellas are not important enough”. This response has made me absolutely furious and the treatment I have received from state government representatives can only be described as disgusting. To simply say these men are insignificant is most disturbing and, I believe is an attack on the very principals of what we are about in this country, mateship. These men have been forgotten and left for 60 years and until this research came along the committee was happy to ignore the historical connection that exists between the Lake and the Mildura air base. We have gained support from the living next of kin yet this is not enough. We then got told we needed the approval of the Department of Defence, we got that too and still this was not good enough. Then the committee said we could go on the lake provided we did not cross the foreshore. I addressed this and still they said no. Each time I have been to the committee they have changed the criteria.
As mentioned, in May 2002 I attended a meeting with the committee and during this meeting, I was informed that the committee believed that should I be successful in recovering the missing Wirraway aircraft, its market value would be in the vicinity of about $1 million Australian Dollars. Several members then asked who I would sell it too and how much money I would make. This clearly identified to me the focus of their intentions. In addition to this, during this same time period, an environmental impact study was completed for use by the lake management committee, in this report are photographs of wirraway wreckage located by several anthropologists. I was given assurances that this information, along with photographs of the wreckage, would be forwarded to the Department of Defence - Airforce so that they could consider the evidence. To my knowledge this has never been done and this information and location of this wreckage has been withheld.
It is clear to me and my associates that we have been exposed to some double standards. The lake is less than 30 feet deep, I have the electronic equipment available to conduct the search at no cost to any Government Departments. We have gained written support from the National President of the RSL and the Chief of Air Force. All of this obtained as ongoing requests by the committee however; the most disturbing contradiction was, that if we got the permission of the families then they would not object to the proposal. Now, after months of trying to rally Federal Government support I once again discover these men have been neglected. Still I will continue to push this story with the hope that there maybe a change in mindset that will one day allow these men to be recovered.
This is not meant to be an attack against any individuals but an attack against a system that is only prepared to acknowledge the rights of the most powerful groups. These men deserve an honourable burial. The families have indicated quite clearly their desires to have their loved ones returned to them.
If anyone can assist me with this situation please contact me via this forum.
Thanks
Digger
Honourable Burial
Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:59 am
Hi RER
Thanks for the feedback however I have done most of these things. I managed to get the story onto National TV here in Australia but this didn't change things, just made them more aggressive towards the whole subject. I feel it probably needs a prolonged media campaign especially since our Federal Govt is actively promoting the return of ancestrial remains from overseas museums etc. Like I say, its a huge contradiction but still a lesson for anyone who tries to recovery anything or anyone from traditional lands.
Hopefully the answer is still out there somewhere?
Cheers
Digger
Thanks for the feedback however I have done most of these things. I managed to get the story onto National TV here in Australia but this didn't change things, just made them more aggressive towards the whole subject. I feel it probably needs a prolonged media campaign especially since our Federal Govt is actively promoting the return of ancestrial remains from overseas museums etc. Like I say, its a huge contradiction but still a lesson for anyone who tries to recovery anything or anyone from traditional lands.
Hopefully the answer is still out there somewhere?
Cheers
Digger
Soldiers Home
Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:43 am
'Scuse me Digger, what is the Lakes foreshore ? Are they aboriginal land,
or some kind of Gub'ment or military reserve?
or some kind of Gub'ment or military reserve?
RAAF Aircrew
Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:33 am
This has come up before,it is Aboriginal land and if there is going to be a recovery then it should be a profecional and an official one.
And that's a job for (BUZZ).
As for the wreck it has no value and should stay there.
Mick
And that's a job for (BUZZ).
As for the wreck it has no value and should stay there.
Mick
Honourable burial
Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:14 am
Yep I agree, it should be done by professionals, and if I could I would submit the proposal to this forum, but doubt the entire 56 pages would fit. However, the proposal does allow for a search for the missing aircraft and as we here in Australia all know, once confirmation of its identity is known, the DoD Airforce is then notified. They have the experts who then carry out the recovery of the remains. As for leaving the aircraft there. If it was possible to recover the remains and leave the aircraft insitu then yes I agree, however, the structural composition of the wirraway - fabric sides and tubular construction means that to ensure that all remains are collected, it maybe necessary to wrap or entomb the wreckage to ensure all contents are brought to the surface. At the end of the day its what the family wishes. As for what constitues a professional? point me in the direction of anyone, if I knew who BUZZ was, and I'll find someone else who will disagree. Thats why the proposal accomodates the referral to the Airforce, so as to reduce the amount of jealous criticism and increase the chances of doing the right thing by the aircrew and their respective families.
To answer the question about the lakes shore line......in the 1920's the original height of the lake was changed by the addition of levee's that raised the level of the lake by sevral metres. This was done so that it could be used to hold more water and therefore be more effective as a water storage basin. Yes, this did have a major impact on the burial sites that would have been above the original lake level, but are now beneath the adjusted level. As for coming up before, your darn right it has, and it will continue to be raised until the boys are sent home!
thanks
Digger
To answer the question about the lakes shore line......in the 1920's the original height of the lake was changed by the addition of levee's that raised the level of the lake by sevral metres. This was done so that it could be used to hold more water and therefore be more effective as a water storage basin. Yes, this did have a major impact on the burial sites that would have been above the original lake level, but are now beneath the adjusted level. As for coming up before, your darn right it has, and it will continue to be raised until the boys are sent home!
thanks
Digger
Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:14 am
If I may ask, what is the basic purpose of this operation?
Is it the retrieval of the bodies of the fallen, to give them a proper military burial? And to leave the airplane where it is now?
Is it to recover the remains of the aircraft? And at the same time, to recover the bodies?
In my opinion, if the aim is to recover the bodies, what these people are doing by impeding the rescue is wrong.
If the aim is to recover the airplane, with a human remains recovery as part of it, more negotiations could probably reach a compromise.
If the purpose is to recover an airframe, then why not leave it where it is, as rare as it may be?
Just my two centavos.
Tulio
Is it the retrieval of the bodies of the fallen, to give them a proper military burial? And to leave the airplane where it is now?
Is it to recover the remains of the aircraft? And at the same time, to recover the bodies?
In my opinion, if the aim is to recover the bodies, what these people are doing by impeding the rescue is wrong.
If the aim is to recover the airplane, with a human remains recovery as part of it, more negotiations could probably reach a compromise.
If the purpose is to recover an airframe, then why not leave it where it is, as rare as it may be?
Just my two centavos.
Tulio
Honourable Burial
Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:46 am
The sole purpose of this proposal is to provide the appropriate Govt Dept, in this case, the Royal Australian Air Force, with confirmation of the whereabouts of the wreck so they can recover the remains of the missing aircrew. As far as I am concerned if this can be achieved without removing the wreck, then yes the wreck should be left there. But while there is a chance to recover these airmen, I believe we have a duty to try.
thanks
Digger
thanks
Digger
Honourable Burial
Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:00 am
I am at an absolute loss. Australia has to be the only country where we continue to send our soldiers to war but can't guarantee that we can be stuffed looking for them if they die (even on Australian soil). We go on and on about the ANZAC spirit and yet compared to the Japanese and Americans we spend nothing on searching for our fallen and paying them the respect they are due. Someone may correct me but I am sure I read that nearly 1000 soldiers are MIA in Australia alone. Ask yourselves.....if that were your family member and you knew where they were, wouldn't you want them back???
Not everything is about money to every person. Some people, amazing as it seems, are altruistic in their actions.
Not everything is about money to every person. Some people, amazing as it seems, are altruistic in their actions.
Soldiers Home
Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:39 am
In my humble opinion,..I think the most respectful thing to do, is to recover the flyers mortal remains and bury them with full military honors.
This would give the family a "personal" closure and comfort. It would also give a nation the chance to honor another of their fallen.
As for the aircraft..I think she should be raised and restored..in her
colours as she went down..and the names of the lads who went with her should be posted on her, as if in life. Static or flying.
That should satisfy the sensitivities and desires of all parties.
My original inquiry as to the lake shore was as I suspected.. a possible
spiritual connection to the aboriginals. I was musing, I know the Abos are
as spiritual as the Native Americans..given that, there is no conflict within the cultures about giving a deceased family member a burial within the
lines of ones upbringing.
SO, the REAL problem here is the durn Aussie Gub'ment..we have the same problem here on this side of the pond too!!!!!......
This would give the family a "personal" closure and comfort. It would also give a nation the chance to honor another of their fallen.
As for the aircraft..I think she should be raised and restored..in her
colours as she went down..and the names of the lads who went with her should be posted on her, as if in life. Static or flying.
That should satisfy the sensitivities and desires of all parties.
My original inquiry as to the lake shore was as I suspected.. a possible
spiritual connection to the aboriginals. I was musing, I know the Abos are
as spiritual as the Native Americans..given that, there is no conflict within the cultures about giving a deceased family member a burial within the
lines of ones upbringing.
SO, the REAL problem here is the durn Aussie Gub'ment..we have the same problem here on this side of the pond too!!!!!......
All Out....
Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:55 am
Your right sparrow..I can't understand the Aussie Gub'ment mentality
either. We Americans are kinda a crazy...we'll drop like flies getting our buds' home...in whatever state! No-one left behind!
either. We Americans are kinda a crazy...we'll drop like flies getting our buds' home...in whatever state! No-one left behind!
Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:12 am
While I strongly support the recovery of forced landing or abandoned aircraft in PNG etc, I personally think heavy impact crash sites with human remains should simply be treated as war graves (and while some might offer recovery of some rare or unique parts) they generally should not be targeted as potential restorations.
There is unlikely to be anything salvagable or even recognisable of this aircraft for static or airworthy use, other than twisted/shattered wings etc
The fabric side panels etc will have long since disintegrated, the capstrips etc all suffer from a poor heat treatment which for most surviving airframes corrodes freely in open air.
The Wirraway is a NA-16 (T6) derivative with a full length steel tube fuselage, the bare frames left above ground at Tocumwal etc have suffered significant rot due to internal moisture etc, any in 30' of water are not going to be worth recovering, added to the fact that this is a sudden impact airframe, so the frame, wing etc will be badly shattered.
The remains of the airframe should be left in the lake, and if the crew remains cannot be found insitu by divers, I think the remains of both the crew and airframe should be left untouched as a wargrave, no different to a ship at sea, let them all rest in peace.
regards
Mark Pilkington
There is unlikely to be anything salvagable or even recognisable of this aircraft for static or airworthy use, other than twisted/shattered wings etc
The fabric side panels etc will have long since disintegrated, the capstrips etc all suffer from a poor heat treatment which for most surviving airframes corrodes freely in open air.
The Wirraway is a NA-16 (T6) derivative with a full length steel tube fuselage, the bare frames left above ground at Tocumwal etc have suffered significant rot due to internal moisture etc, any in 30' of water are not going to be worth recovering, added to the fact that this is a sudden impact airframe, so the frame, wing etc will be badly shattered.
The remains of the airframe should be left in the lake, and if the crew remains cannot be found insitu by divers, I think the remains of both the crew and airframe should be left untouched as a wargrave, no different to a ship at sea, let them all rest in peace.
regards
Mark Pilkington
wargraves
Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:59 am
i think the issue is to locate exactly where they are ie GPS. you need to find them and inform the RAAF, DOD whoever and say well here they we've done the hard work now get em out! Australian government is really slack at actually getting of their @r$e and coughing up money for 2 nobodies who weren't at gallipoli! that's exactly how they look at the situation. being ex army myself, i know they just dont give a toss about you once you've done your bit. there is an organisation here in canberra i think who spend their whole time fighting for compo for service personnel who have just been injured let alone killed. it really makes your morale sky rocket when you know if you loose a leg or your life fighting for your country that the b's wont even pay out your family or give you a new leg!
Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:42 am
OK,Grabbing the bull by the horns.(As I see it )
This committee is made up of :quote"Elders and State government representatives".
The traditional owners want money. Their cut if you like.
The govt reps are sugar scared of the abo's.Everyones sugar scared.
Ask anyone in the mining industry,this is normal business in Australia.
Anything to do with the land,and you need to pay "them"off.
Unfortunately the best thing you can do, as I see it, is to negotiate a price
then try and raise the money.This can be a very long and expensive ordeal.Don't be surprised if other groups suddenly appear out of nowhere and try and jump on the bandwagon.Oh yes it happens all the time.
I truly wish you success in this endeavour.Unfortuately this is the state of
our nation with minorities running the show.Such a shame.
This committee is made up of :quote"Elders and State government representatives".
The traditional owners want money. Their cut if you like.
The govt reps are sugar scared of the abo's.Everyones sugar scared.
Ask anyone in the mining industry,this is normal business in Australia.
Anything to do with the land,and you need to pay "them"off.
Unfortunately the best thing you can do, as I see it, is to negotiate a price
then try and raise the money.This can be a very long and expensive ordeal.Don't be surprised if other groups suddenly appear out of nowhere and try and jump on the bandwagon.Oh yes it happens all the time.
I truly wish you success in this endeavour.Unfortuately this is the state of
our nation with minorities running the show.Such a shame.
Soldiers Home
Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:14 pm
Ahhhh...the rest of the story. Have ya'll tried casinos?
Honourable Burial
Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:20 pm
Hi all,
well there have been a few comments made about this subject and a couple of questions too. I'll try to address some. To answer Sparrow's comments about the actual number of MIA in Australia, I can say that Australia does not recognise any military personal as "Missing in Action". Rather the 'Gub ment' prefers the more soft approach and uses the official term as "Having no known grave". As for the number of missing, on the eastern zone of Australia, that is the East coast but including the Cape York and Gulf country there are over 750 names still not accounted for. And before someone jumps up and questions this, yes this does include alot of Merchant Sailors, who I refer to as the fourth service. Still there is a significant number of Military personnel missing, around 300. If you were to add the number of US personnel to this list we would get a figure closer to 1000.
Some people have suggested paying the traditional owners. This topic has been discussed and a 6 figure number was put to me. After I picked myself up off the floor and tried to make sense of this obsurd recommendation I was further advised that if I made a significant donation to the lake management fund this would be seen as favourable. Still no guarantee of getting onto the lake. The problem I have with this, and I do admit this is more of a personal issue, is that I do not beleive I should have to pay to recover the remains of the fallen!. I have offered to pay all costs with regards the search and initial dive to confirm identification, but after that the matter would be referred to Airforce for further action. The problem here is that Airforce can not act unless there is evidence to support the wreck is located and that it contains the remains of the aircrew. Commonwealth War graves say it would be a war grave if it could located. So its a catch 22 situation. I know its there but have been denied the opportunity to locate it. Even if the remains were left in the lake, they should still be given the protection of the Commonwealth War Graves Act. I should also add that I have also had several meetings with individual elders who have expressed their concerns about the spiritual contradiction this refusal has created. One female elder becomes very emotional when she considers that they could be causing ongoing suffering to living relatives. All the same its a very complex situation, one which unless there is some kind of massive media attention, niether the traditional owners or the respective Govt agencies will do anything about.
cheers
Digger
well there have been a few comments made about this subject and a couple of questions too. I'll try to address some. To answer Sparrow's comments about the actual number of MIA in Australia, I can say that Australia does not recognise any military personal as "Missing in Action". Rather the 'Gub ment' prefers the more soft approach and uses the official term as "Having no known grave". As for the number of missing, on the eastern zone of Australia, that is the East coast but including the Cape York and Gulf country there are over 750 names still not accounted for. And before someone jumps up and questions this, yes this does include alot of Merchant Sailors, who I refer to as the fourth service. Still there is a significant number of Military personnel missing, around 300. If you were to add the number of US personnel to this list we would get a figure closer to 1000.
Some people have suggested paying the traditional owners. This topic has been discussed and a 6 figure number was put to me. After I picked myself up off the floor and tried to make sense of this obsurd recommendation I was further advised that if I made a significant donation to the lake management fund this would be seen as favourable. Still no guarantee of getting onto the lake. The problem I have with this, and I do admit this is more of a personal issue, is that I do not beleive I should have to pay to recover the remains of the fallen!. I have offered to pay all costs with regards the search and initial dive to confirm identification, but after that the matter would be referred to Airforce for further action. The problem here is that Airforce can not act unless there is evidence to support the wreck is located and that it contains the remains of the aircrew. Commonwealth War graves say it would be a war grave if it could located. So its a catch 22 situation. I know its there but have been denied the opportunity to locate it. Even if the remains were left in the lake, they should still be given the protection of the Commonwealth War Graves Act. I should also add that I have also had several meetings with individual elders who have expressed their concerns about the spiritual contradiction this refusal has created. One female elder becomes very emotional when she considers that they could be causing ongoing suffering to living relatives. All the same its a very complex situation, one which unless there is some kind of massive media attention, niether the traditional owners or the respective Govt agencies will do anything about.
cheers
Digger