Warbird Information Exchange

I miss typed.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Randy, it looks like we are having a civil and interesting discussion. PRAISE BE to Allah, Buddah, Jesus and the Great Pumpkin! Let me rephrase and simplify my question. Have Allied air forces altered their missions after Pres Karzai requested that air power stand down on the recent TV interview?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Perhaps this is not a question to pursue further? Randy's been very frank (where he can) and I can think of a number of reasons why he may not be able (allowed or wise) to comment on this - AT ALL.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

James, I understand there may be security concerns, things Randy may not or should not say. I was not asking for tomorrow's target list. The request by Karzai was not secret, rather is was on a TV interview broadcast on a major US channel. I thought it was a unique and noteworthy situation where a Pres is asking an ally not to use airpower in his country. The US resonse might well be secret, if so they can say that.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Randy, it would be better if you and everybody had seen the TV report. In summary, the US interveiwer is talking about civ casulties. He shows a Allied post near a village, says someone fired a rocket at it. He says then planes bombed a house in the village. He interviews a couple of dozen Afghan men who say 9 civ killed, no armed men, no al Queda. The viewer has NO WAY of knowing who these guys are or if what they say is true, they aren't even speaking English. No big deal so far. But then he interviews Pres Kazai, speaking in English and he CLEARLY says twice he wants Allies to stop ALL AIRPOWER. He did not say just stop bombing civilains. Also yu posted my quote, but then added your own word to it. I did not write "back" as in back to bombing, that is your word and it might change the meaning. As for a military target, I assme it might be like a tank or a plane. I guess a house might be civilian or military depending on who is in it. Before the Alamo was a fort, it was a church. You guys do have a tough time in a modern war like this. I think all of us hope you guys get home safe and soon. If I find the exact story, I'll try to post or reference it. PS. I'd offer you a Spit flight, but the wings are only stressed to 9 gs.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I don't know the response...I'm not over there anymore.

President Karzai has made statements similar to this before, most notably in response to an incident earlier this summer.

Remember, we as those *providing* close air support all ready live under ultra-strict guidelines for letting ordnance fall off the jet. It is the ground parties, the vast majority of the time, who are selecting targets for us to hit.

You'd have to ask them if their guidelines for picking targets have changed. I doubt it, since the rules of engagement all ready preclude attacks against civilian non combatants.

There has been zero tolerance for collateral damage since the first day the US set foot in Afghanistan. There is still zero tolerance today. The reality of combat is that there is natural "fog and friction" as Clausewitz called it -- confusion about who is who and where they are. This is what causes fratricide and collateral damage -- aspects of war that have existed since the first day two cavemen decided to go attack two other cavemen for the meat they had in their camp.

Every high tech and low tech means available is used to ensure that ordnance hits the bad guys and does not hit the good guys or the neutral guys. Leaders can make all the proclaimations they want, and it doesn't change the realities of a battlefield. It's sort of like the President of the US making an evening address on television telling Americans to stop having traffic accidents.

I haven't heard that quote, and quite frankly I'd be very surprised if that's what he really asked for -- no more airpower.

If that IS what he asked for, then I highly doubt that the ISAF leadership will ever allow it. Airpower is our asymmetric advantage on the battlefield. It allows ground units to operate much more light and agile, and not have to drag their own artillery everywhere they go.

If airpower were halted, in my opinion collateral damage would be WORSE. Artillery and mortar fire is significantly less accurate than a GPS or laser-guided bomb. It's even less accurate than strafing with 20mm or 30mm.

Fair enough Randy. I can't walk down the street and tell who is a Baptist and who is a Catholic. Do the different factions look any different to a Westerner, can you tell? Do these guys come into town and mingle like the VC did? By the way you can tell a Longhorn, they are the trim, tall, handsome, intelligent looking guys usually flying the beautful elipitical wing airplanes. And thanks for your service.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Here's a recent 60 minutes interview transcript that has some quotes from Karzai about this subject:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drenn ... ad-taliban

That's exactly part of the problem.

Here's a quote from that 60 minutes piece:



Make no mistake -- it is tragic when those who are not part of the fight are injured, maimed, or killed. Nobody in the US military wants that.

RANDY, DIRECT HIT. THAT IS EXACTLY THE REPORT I SAW. You are sure as heck a deadeye with that computer. Thanks, pro or con, agree or disagree, now at least you and other folks can see I did not invent it and I hope I summarized it fairly. Of course your version is from an anti-liberal site and the report I saw was the original TV version not just in print. Your conservative site does give accurate quotes of what I saw. Maybe what Karzai said is not a extrodinary as it struck me.I notice your conservative rebutal is furious at the interviewer, but they don't address what Karzai said.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I know, I was just pulling your finger, Randy.
My point was that it has in the past been policy, and it no longer is. That is a positive change for all concerned. Except the bad guys, who take advantage of it. You'll note that later I noted that I'm impressed and happy to see that the AF has got sick of being painted as murderers and has made it more difficult for you to drop ord in doing so (by ensuring target verification). While I'm sorry your life got more difficult with all the newer safeguards, I am also glad you can now do so in full confidence that your targets really are solid targets.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Ya know, I just sat here and read all 6 pages of this thread and I don't know if the F-15s were grounded for mechanical reasons or something else. Very interesting read, but I feel so stupid 'cause I don't know why the Eagle is grounded.

I remember my first sight of an Eagle at Elmendorf AFB up in Alaska. My God what a gorgeous site to see/hear/feel one of those lovely planes taking off at full afterburner, especially at night!

I am so jealous of you Randy insofar as your being able to fly one! Now, I think it best for you to go ahead and take one of those new Raptors, so long as you drop off your old Eagle at my house on the way A nice bombload and full tank of gas would be appreciated also

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.

The Eagles are grounded because one came apart in the air during a training exercise on Nov. 3rd or thereabouts. Possible structural failure, and the birds are grounded pending an Air Force/Boeing investigation into the cause of the accident.

John

F-15C fleet grounded again! More cracks found, more inspections needed. Film at 11.

On an unrelated note, but in like with my thread-jack in this thread, anyone see this on cnn.com today?



http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiap ... index.html