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 Post subject: guns
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:56 am 
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Scott, I thought I was using your formula which agreed with the data provided by August (K5083) in the original forum, and also a magazine story I saw with the same conclusion. Sounds like a 50 is a good gun, but I still don't see it as better than 4 20mm even for fighter vs fighter. That's what the RAF evolved to at the end of the war. You say the 50 fires 100 fpm faster than the Brit cannon so has a little less drop, so really the 20mm is almost as good. The 50 cal rate of fire is 150% (half again better). But because the cannon shell is much larger the impact is much more, 3 times that of each 50, not even counting that you can use either armor piercing or explosive shells in the cannon. By the way, I know 30s had incindery (deWild) and tracer rounds. Did the 50s have these? I knew the 109 cannon was not a good one, and the British was. How good were the Japanese or Russian ones?

Sounds like the 50s are very good, thus they worked on F-86, but still seems like a 4 cannon are best. Maybe the Spit XVI was a good combo, 2x20mm and 2x50cal. The c wing on my MkIX is set up to readily convert to 4x20mm and no 30s. I don't know if they did this often in the field. I do know the Brits even tried an experiment of shooting a target plane with all of it. 2x20mm, 2x50cal, and 4x30 cal. Their conclusion, written in precise English, was apart from the fact that it was way too heavy, was that it was unnecessary as "it tended to vaporize the opponent".

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 Post subject: Re: FW
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:58 am 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Connery, the question I picked the 109 on was which was Most Important fighter. The FW was not around in the early years, nor used in the numbers as the 109. And even at the end of the war the top aces, Rall, Hartmann did not switch to the FW. So don't sell a 109 short.

As for the 51A, like the P-40 it was fine for its time. But if it was really that good it would not have changed so quickly. Why do you think the Brits put the Merlin in it? In the early form it had decent speed down low. But the Germans came over England at 20 or even 25,000 feet, well above the effective altitude for an Allison. Later at 25 or 30,000 feet the 109s would have mauled them as they did the P-38s.

A good pilot may be an ace, like Joe Foss, Bader, etc. in an early model. It doesn't mean the plane is on a par with th later fighters.


I totally agree. The British put the Merlin in the P-51 because of the poor performance of the Allison at higher altitudes and made an already great airframe even better. However, the British continued to use the P-51A in the RECON role throughout the war because of it's performance down low.

The -109 was definitely a major factor in the early years of the war and it continued to be refined right up until the end. However, in the last year of the war the 190D was the more capable bird and even Rall said in an interview that the knew it was a better fighter but he stayed in the 109 because it was what he preferred.

Of course it also depended on who was flying any particular aircraft. A skilled pilot in a older less capable aircraft stood more than a fair chance against an experienced pilot in a better weapon system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:09 am 
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Bill-

Have you had the opportunity to fight your Spit? I spent a career (far too short) doing this fighter thing (albeit in kerosene burners) and what I am trying to tell you is that gun kills are hard to do against a maneuvering target... e.g. one who doesn't want to get shot down.

So, when you take the difficulty factor into account it is better to have the 50s instead of the 20MM cannons... it makes my job easier... remember that the 20MM in WWII was slower firing (rate and velocity) which means I've got to spend more time making the shot happen... time is short in any air-to-air engagement. You can't restrict a discussion about guns without taking these factors into account.... it becomes an engineer versus pilot argument. That is an argument that cannot be solved... except maybe... take your cannon... give me 6 50s... or even 4 in the P-38 and I figure we could solve this question<g>...

I have heard that the 4 cannon Spit was discontinued in the ETO (used primarily in the tropics)... If I remember correctly it was a heating problem... keeping the outboard guns from freezing at altitude.

The most important point in my view is that the discussion cannot be taken out of context... the M61, with a Fl of 145 is better than all of them... there is no easy answer... only a contextual answer....

gunny

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:34 am 
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If this is so, then the discussion is bsed on ammunition more so than weapon, i.e the larger the round the more versatile the load. I can vouch personally for the 50 cal and available ammo, also the 20mm. The 50 had AP, incindiary and ball ammo. The 20mm had all that plus a point detonated round. the 303's ball, tracer and incindiary. Obviously the bigger round had the most punch, advantage Spit.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:21 am 
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sgt hawk wrote:
If this is so, then the discussion is bsed on ammunition more so than weapon, i.e the larger the round the more versatile the load. I can vouch personally for the 50 cal and available ammo, also the 20mm. The 50 had AP, incindiary and ball ammo. The 20mm had all that plus a point detonated round. the 303's ball, tracer and incindiary. Obviously the bigger round had the most punch, advantage Spit.


sgt hawk-

I think you miss my point about the effectiveness of a particular gun installation. A bigger round doesn't mean a more effective gun... as a fighter pilot I consider the airplane a weapon platform... I'd sure like weapons that are easier to employ... for that I'd take the 50 cals for a WWII era platform.

I consider the engineer's point of view... but I'd rather fight with a 50 than a 20MM... As I said perhaps the best ranking would be by using the number of kills per single sortie... for the Spit (I just flipped through Shores "Aces High" for the RAF) there are a smattering of 2 kill days, a few over that (one was a 4 kill day over Dover during the BoB... but was it one sortie, there were quantitatively more multiple damage days)... multiple kills were common in the P-47/51/F6F/P-38... many pilots achieved more than 5 kills on a single sortie... several scored six or more... the 50 was more effective... it may not be as sexy a package as the Spit...

The bottom line is how useable the platform is for the pilot... and the best way to judge that is to look at results...

gunny

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Great discussion, and I'm learning a lot.
I would say that all of the weaponry talk actually is a tactical concern, and of less importance in the more strategic factors in the deternination of 'best fighter' which intuitively suggests the fighter which had the greatest impact on the outcome of the War (apparantly limited to WW2 in this discussion) and history.

I'll defer to a guy who was in a very good position at the time with the right credentials to make that final determination:

"When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the war was lost" - Field Marshall Hermann Goering.

Now, as far as the most important fighter of the 20th Century, to me there is little doubt that the McDonald Douglas F4 Phantom II reigns supreme not only as much for what it could do, but for what it did.
Flame away. :)


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 Post subject: Kills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Don't think you measure guns by how many kills in one day. Too many variables. But if you did, Hans Jochiam Marseille ( sp????) in one day shot down about 15 Allied fighters, mostly P-40s, maybe even a Spit. He flew a 109, with two small machine guns and two poor cannons. Does this prove anything other than he was a master, maybe The Master, and that bad tactics and the P-40 were no match. Have you got any 50 cal planes that scored 15 in one day?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Statisticvs say you don't look at the engineering but the results. And you can't look at a small cross section. I don't the varied datum you'd need to come to a reasonable conclusion. Also, you're looking at differ4ent weapons for different jobs. For downing B17's I'd want a couple of 20mm. Pop them out of range of the .50's and they're unable to fire back, and in formation unable to E&E. For dogfighting all those .50's would seem to be the most effective- tha's a lot of lead airborne at the same time...For strafing I would say a bunch of .303 for anti personal, 50's for soft vehicles, and 20mm for the roofs of armor, and ships.

But as for which single weapon was best, it's like asking whose pecker is best: Mine is, you dullards. At least for me it is. You may have a different opinion, since your environment, preferences, and needs may differ from mine.

Which bird is the best? Spit without a doubt. It served in all theatres, was upgraded effectivly beyond the end of the war. And it shined in each role it was used for at least as effectively as any other aircraft of the war. No other singole aircraft had its longevity or its record of service or it's adaptability.

Coolest aircraft? PBY.

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 Post subject: Re: Kills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Don't think you measure guns by how many kills in one day. Too many variables. But if you did, Hans Jochiam Marseille ( sp????) in one day shot down about 15 Allied fighters, mostly P-40s, maybe even a Spit. He flew a 109, with two small machine guns and two poor cannons. Does this prove anything other than he was a master, maybe The Master, and that bad tactics and the P-40 were no match. Have you got any 50 cal planes that scored 15 in one day?


Bill-

I tried to make the point about one sortie... most of the Americans only did one sortie a day in the ETO... the point about using that measure is how many rounds are needed to make a kill... if the gun is effective you don't have to use many rounds... and you can bag another one without going home to rearm... VERY much weapon effectiveness is a measure of Pk per sortie.

The bottom line is kills per sortie... that's why you put the fighters up in the first place... I think the case is strong that the number of kills per sortie is a direct measure of weapon effectiveness...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:41 pm 
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snj5 wrote:
Great discussion, and I'm learning a lot.
I would say that all of the weaponry talk actually is a tactical concern, and of less importance in the more strategic factors in the deternination of 'best fighter' which intuitively suggests the fighter which had the greatest impact on the outcome of the War (apparantly limited to WW2 in this discussion) and history.

I'll defer to a guy who was in a very good position at the time with the right credentials to make that final determination:

"When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the war was lost" - Field Marshall Hermann Goering.

Now, as far as the most important fighter of the 20th Century, to me there is little doubt that the McDonald Douglas F4 Phantom II reigns supreme not only as much for what it could do, but for what it did.
Flame away. :)


snj5-

I loved the F-4... it was a hoot to fly and it accomplished a tremendous amount... but the F-15E is a better airplane... period dot... give me a 229 bird and let me drop the CFTs and I'll take on anything in a knife fight short of an F-22<g>.....

gunny

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:02 pm 
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hsperdue wrote:

I loved the F-4... it was a hoot to fly and it accomplished a tremendous amount... but the F-15E is a better airplane... period dot... give me a 229 bird and let me drop the CFTs and I'll take on anything in a knife fight short of an F-22<g>.....
gunny

Gunny -
Yeppers, the Mud Hen is a more capable aircraft than the Rhino, but the F-15E will never be able to match the heritage and record of the F4. Most important to remember, that the F4, the last true JOINT fighter, and served America and many nations for decades as the front line defense for the Free World - sitting nuke alert, flying from carriers, facing down the Fulda Gap as NATO stared down certain eastern expansionism. The F4 STILL serves NATO and allied nations today, defending freedom.
Yes, there are more capable aircraft, but none can match the strategic contribution of the F4 Phantom II, the most important fighter of the 20th Century.
best,
rt
:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:08 pm 
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snj5 wrote:
hsperdue wrote:

I loved the F-4... it was a hoot to fly and it accomplished a tremendous amount... but the F-15E is a better airplane... period dot... give me a 229 bird and let me drop the CFTs and I'll take on anything in a knife fight short of an F-22<g>.....
gunny

Gunny -
Yeppers, the Mud Hen is a more capable aircraft than the Rhino, but the F-15E will never be able to match the heritage and record of the F4. Most important to remember, that the F4, the last true JOINT fighter, and served America and many nations for decades as the front line defense for the Free World - sitting nuke alert, flying from carriers, facing down the Fulda Gap as NATO stared down certain eastern expansionism. The F4 STILL serves NATO and allied nations today, defending freedom.
Yes, there are more capable aircraft, but none can match the strategic contribution of the F4 Phantom II, the most important fighter of the 20th Century.
best,
rt
:)


I stipulate your observations... but I flew 'em both and I like the Strike Eagle<g>....

gunny

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:18 pm 
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I never flew the Mud Hen, but have 80 hours in the F-15 B; Of course with more years and combat time in the Weasel perhaps I am biased as well... :)
best,
rt


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:24 pm 
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snj5 wrote:
I never flew the Mud Hen, but have 80 hours in the F-15 B; Of course with more years and combat time in the Weasel perhaps I am biased as well... :)
best,
rt


So we all have our favorites... Bill has the Spit... you've got the F-4... but you gotta know one thing... when you call the Strike Eagle a Mud Hen you are insulting the airplane and me... it is a derogatory term like Lawn Dart is the the F-16... now you know.

gunny

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 Post subject: jets
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Guys jets aren't really part of this topic on WWII piston fighters, but it may be a good topic. Why don't someone start that as a subject of it's own?

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