Warbird Information Exchange

I just got back in town from a week in New England on business... quite a shock! It really looks like there were some snarky transactions being made... I can't imagine a person unlawfully taking a piece like that and putting something up so quickly on a public and very often visited site.

Hopefully this will get resolved... but I fear that there will be some folks burned in some way... it couldn't have been cheap to get it moved.

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

Hey Rob, This might be one of those deals like I was talking to you about....somebody else selling or giving away something to somebody like this guy.....For him, I hope that is the case....anyway, if you need any more nut rocks...I'll haul you in a load!

Wow. What a weekend. We got a half-inch of rain out here and my ISP - Qwest - just stops, ergo my lack of commo in 32 hours. Great. But this is not a testamonial for Qwest.

As of 0800 this morning, "The Admiral" still remains AWOL as stolen property. We still need help to close this case.

First - a big THANK YOU to the WIX community that got involved in this. What began as a few frantic phone calls placed Friday afternoon and a quick posting on this message board has become a tidal wave of support and help. One outstanding individual is Matt Gunsch here in PHX. He tracked down an address lead and drove on his motorcycle - in the rain and at 10 p.m. at night - to go do a little recon. He found nothing.

But thanks to several PMs and other messages before my computer shut down I have some good leads and will be forwarding this all to the GRPD this morning.

This is my second attempt to post my feelings on this matter. I think I'd better just stick with facts - and here's hoping ya'll out there will point me closer to the thief and we can get a location for the PD to follow up on.

Memorial Airfield is on the Gila River Indian Community bordering Chandler and Phoenix. I've been out here for the last 20 years. Memorial was home to a large aerial application and heavy freight haul firm. They moved off field almost two years ago. I've purchased airplane parts and complete airframes from them over the years.

Memorial is a closed airport. The entrance is clearly marked with a "NO TRESPASSING" sign. Those of us who are here are because of individual arrangements with the Indian community. There are numerous airplanes and several buildings here. On field right now there are several Lockheed PV-2s (one of which is ours), a Howard 500, a DC-7, and several R5Ds.

I bought "The Admiral" in February 2006 directly from the owner. I have a bill of sale. I have a cancelled check. I have the entire series of logbooks and paperwork on the airplane from her birth at Douglas Aircraft. I spent hours trimming her down with a chop saw for placement on a trailer. I built a set of wooden trailer jigs for her, too.

I did not sell the cockpit nor did I give it away. Quite literally, it was to be moved this week by a commercial trucking firm and sent to FFZ, where Wingspan, a new 501(c)3 educational foundation, was to begin work on it. Wingspan is new. It does not have a fancy web address yet. But they do have a flood of volunteer support and a small but growing collection. I am a benefactor to Wingspan (no, it is not my organization).

I bought this cockpit along with several others last year when many of these airplanes were being scrapped by multiple owners. I chose to save four of them. "The Admiral" was the last on field, and was clearly marked "No Scrap" and had a clipboard with our firm's name and contact information inside of it. It sat on the pilot's seat. We have a similar clipboard on our PV on the throttle quadrant. It asks people not to molest the airplanes and identifies - quite clearly - who we are and how to reach us.

Memorial is a closed, uncontrolled airport. Over the last two years, the Gila River Indian Community has chosen to change its focus on this airport, and has not renewed any leases for any of us who have previously had arrangements with them. They have been gracious in letting us move our items off field. I alone have a Lockheed PV-2 here, along with heavy tooling and a PB4Y-2 cockpit section. I'm supposed to be here.

There has been an exodus of sorts from this airfield in several months. International Air Response flew their last C-130 out last week. A TBM Avenger that lost pistons en route to an airshow in PHX left three weeks ago on a truck. WhisperJet has almost removed all of their 60 H-19 helicopters. But there are several complete and incomplete airframes still left here by various owners. Nothing is in immediate danger of being scrapped (that was done back in 2006). Any rumours to this affect are spurious.

The thief who took our cockpit didn't bother to speak with me, or any one of the main tenants on field. He instead chose a sneaky way of doing it - coming in on a Saturday and loading and going without so much as notifying anyone. Upon speaking with all of the tenants and operators on field (we were all there for a meeting with the Indian community Friday), no one knew who had taken "The Admiral" - and the one witness who'd seen it leave the week prior assumed it was being moved by Wingspan or my guys. They - along with the Tribal members (the entire airport authority board) were saddened to learn of the theft.

Did the thief just assume that the cockpit fell off the R5D and was there free for the taking? Did he not read the "No Trespassing" signs on the airfield, or the "No Scrap" sings on the cockpit and other airplanes out here?

Just because someone isn't watching over something 24-7 with a shotgun doesn't mean it's abandoned, folks. To take something without permission is called "Stealing" and one who does it is a darn ---- - wait, sorry. The word I need to insert here is "thief."

I greatly appreciate the support from the WIX community. anyone who wants to PM me anonymously with a location and phone number of "sticky fingers" can do so, as I have been instructed to turn all data over to the detectives with GRPD and NOT to take matters into my own hand. And that's probably good for thief, as I would not be very cordial, gracious or warm at our encounter.

We have a saying out here - "Trust everyone, but brand your cattle." Our "cow" has a pretty good brand for all to see, and there's no mistaken situation here to report. In the past, cattle rustlers were dealt with rather harshly, and I fully support the same treatment of airplanes thieves and vandals. I've had a belly full of 'em.

Keep me posted, and thank you all...

- Pooner

(aka Rob Kropp (602) 708-3942

Rob, I know that you're angry, but I think that you need to talk to the gentleman who has the cockpit before calling him a thief.

His name has been posted here, his information is known to Ruud Leew, and I'm sure somewhere in your e-mail box is the information on how to contact him since he has been in contact with Ruud.

I have my doubts that someone would knowingly steal such a large item and then post pictures of it on a well known, and heavily frequented website such as Ruud's.

The fact is, someone took the cockpit you have the paperwork for. You don't know whether it was knowingly stolen or someone on the reservation, another tenant, or an outsider "sold" the cockpit to an innocent man who thought he was rescuing a piece of history about to go to the scrapper. There is no information publically available showing you as the owner. I know, I did the searches myself, which lead me to wondering who this museum was because I can't even find a tax filing in the state of Arizona for this museum which meant it was either new, or you were possibly being taken for a ride yourself.

I have full faith that this matter will be solved, but it won't help anything at all if you immediately call this man a thief without knowing the full story, which no one does at this point except for him. He spent a sizable sum of money to get that plane moved. I doubt he's happy to find out that he got a bum bill of sale on the aircraft himself and just spent that money and will get nothing for it.

It's always best to find out the facts before you fill in the blanks

_________________
IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

I can share your feelings Pooner... We may have run across each other while I was out there. When my Aero Commander was out there, I had numerous pieces either stolen off of if or delibertly destroyed. Some decided that it would really fun to take and drive over a pristine bottom cowling that I had taken the time to place in the cockpit and tie down so that the wind could not catch it and possible blow it out the door. The fuselage door, some fairings and cockpit pieces all dissapeared in between my trips out there, despite having picked up and stored all the loose bits in the aircraft, tarping over it all and putting my name and number on signs all over the aircraft. Lastly, someon got cute and tried to drag the entire aircraft backwards through the tail of one of the 'Poons and managed to destroy the rudder and vertical fin and damage one wing....two of which I had potential buyers in need of.

I know that the ITAR guys had been working with the local police and the reservation police and state police to curb the problems out there. I had been given explicit instructions to make sure that ITAR's staff knew ahead of time that I was coming so they could keep the authorities informed that I was supposed to be there and would be working potentially at all hours of the times that I was there. I was greatful for their help and the coordination that they performed. Both times I was out there, I had the police checking on me and verifying that I was supposed to be there.

I'm glad that things have worked out somewhat for the better for you guys and have gained time to make the recoveries. When I was last out there, things were pretty bleak for anything had not been moved off field by a certain date or was not within one of the specified compounds.

BTW...Any idea as to what the plan is for the Howard?

Craig C.

I guess I could title this "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly."

That perhaps best describes the course this situation has taken over the course of the last few days. I've been in the middle of all three, still with no resolution. Or redemtion.

The "Good" is the number of calls and the positive response I've had from people whom I've never met. The "Bad" is still this situation - bad in that the cockpit was taken (and perhaps my mood for calling the person who took it a "thief" - but I'm not here to argue the semantics of the word, but rather to see a nothing other than resolution). The ugly? How that'd be a phone call I received this afternoon while on the I-10.....

That'd be a "Restricted" call - one that does not show a telephone number of the caller, nor does it permit me to respond back to the number, even to allow them to remain anonymous....

"Yeah, about the cockpit you say was stolen... I can tell you for a fact you're not gonna see it again and that's just tough s--t for you," caller said.

"And why is that?" I enquired. "How come?"

"The guy who took it spent a lot of money to get it out of there, you didn't do anything with it, and putting it in a so-called 'museum' I can't even find on the net is a bunch of BS," he said. "And if you really cared about the airplane you'd be flying them instead of cutting them up, a-hole. Hope someone steals all of your stuff."

And with that, a hang-up. Call terminated.

Yeah, I'm still a little stunned. Whether it was a poor attempt at a joke, or someone's real feelings on the matter, I certainly don't know. It seems rather childish, and I can only hope it was a lark. But it was a deliberate message, from whomever.

Obviously, someone decided to take a shot knowing I'm not one to hide behind a curtain of mystery. In an attempt to get my airplane cockpit back, I've been pretty open about who I am and how to reach me, and will continue to do so.

Is there a need to clarify this situation further? Maybe. For the record, I'm not an airplane scrapper. Far from it. I've spent the last three decades of my life trying to save this stuff, and for me it has a lot of personal meaning. "The Admiral" was not my airplane to begin with and the owner wanted it gone for many reasosn that I was not able to overcome. Sadly, I had offered to buy the entire airplane and save it (though operating a C-54 is waaaay out of my economic means) but owner insisted on a price that was not realistic. In the end, after buying the nose section, the rest of the metal that went to the Chinese scrap merchants netted him less than 25 percent of what I had offered for the plane.

Museums? I've dealt with many of them in-country and around the world, and I've learned a fancy website does not a museum make. Wingspan may not have the website for your review and approval, but give 'em time. And to whom one gives something is a personal decision and really doesn't factor into the issue at hand. They're good folks, and their tax status or ability to find them on the net doesn't really matter to me. Don't listen to me - I'm just a crazy lunatic missing parts. Give 'em a call yourself and test the water.

Craig, I remember you well from toiling in the heat on your AeroCommander more than a year ago. We had a sad laugh at our combined fates - it was your a/c that struck the tail section of our 'Poon - 57C - when some ne'r do well kids decided to hook up your plane to the back of a pickup truck and make it fly one night out there. We found the beer bottles and the damage to figure out what happened.

Helldivers, I agree with you 100 percent. Get the facts. Whether this was a statement for all to ponder or a sideways slam at me for going off on the individual who took my stuff, I'm not sure. I DID let my personal opinion cloud the facts as presented earlier. Remove my tagline on the individual who took the cockpit, and the rest is submitted as just that. Fact. The 5 Ws - Who, What, When, Where, Why.

CAPFlyer is right. No need to place a tag on the individual whom I'm at odds with - I need to remain neutral. But it's hard to feel warm and fuzzy toward somone who takes something from you without your knowledge, permission or consent. As a child I was told this kind of act was stealing, and one who did this sort of thing wasn't a nice person and had a name or two attached. But maybe that's the nasty Alpha male in me rearing its ugly head. I have a very defined sense of right and wrong and because of my direct involvement in this issue, I take it kinda personal. If I offended you, it was not inentional. You're far more liberal than I (no slam intended), and I have been told I could use more than just a little tollerance toward others. But I certainly didn't get this ugly face from backing away from fights, either.

I sense through reading and re-reading these posts (and leaving out the whack-job imbecile who called me) that I'm to consider the possibility that there has been a "misunderstanding" and "perhaps I am not the only wronged party in this affair." That possibly someone went to considerable time and expense and effort to "save" something that had already been saved.

OK, sounds plausible. But as of this afternoon, I still have no calls from another party or reliable source on this matter (I'll discount the crank call, as I can only hope to God such people don't congregate - or breed). No e-mails with an attempt to tell another side of a story, so...

I guess I wait. A little irritated, but with tempered patience. Deep breath. OK, there's my side. Let's hear the other - something. Anything?

-Pooner

Rob Kropp (602) 708-3942

Pooner, you don't need to oppologise to nobody, I'd be royally pissed myself over something like this, wheather it was a mistake or intentional, ya still got the right to be hacked!

Pooner, I really hope you get it back. But the advice to withhold judgement until he's convicted is a wise idea. Not for his health, but for your own sanity. Letting your sense of being wronged (having something like that stolen must be akin to being raped in the sense of being taken advantage of and exposed) run your day is just going to screw you up. I don't know what you do to regain your composure in times like this, but you ought to treat yourself right. Try and distance yourself a bit from the anger and the pain. Maybe take a day off with the kids and go see a movie. Take the old lady to a movie. Go hunting. I'be been going to the range and running my ass off lately. It can sure help your judgement and your ability to work through it when you aren't raving mad at the other guy. Then you can move in calmly and deliberately and put one in his head.

Not saying you've gone insane or anything, just that this would rank right up there with my wife and I splitting up-to me. Make sure you're taking care of yourself through all of this, eh?

Best of luck. I believe that you'll get your bird back, and justice will be served.

_________________
"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

My own little adventure in to the ugly side of warbirds was when people at the NMUSAF recieved deaththreats from Memphis when the Belle was moved to Dayton.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

It is a small world when it comes to aircraft and I'm sure the thief will come to light. I hope it is soon and you get your property back soon.

I feel for you, I'd be ready to kill if I was in your shoes right now.

Tim

_________________
www.tailhookstudio.com

Maybe I'm just thick or sumpthin.....

But I don't get it.

If Pooner has a bill of sale and knows the who the guy is and where he lives then what the big hang up? Call the cops, report the stolen property and let them enforce the law.


Or am I missing something and it's not that simple?


Thanks

Shay
_____________
Semper Fortis

Rob, believe me, I'm not at all liberal, but I believe in due process. He hasn't been proven to have knowingly taken the aircraft yet, so for everyone's sake (especially that of the aircraft) the best tack (learned from my horrible experience in the past) to take is not assume it's been stolen outright until the whole story is known. I hope that Ruud can forward you the contact information and that contact can be made and the situation resolved in a civil manner for all.

Here's a few things to consider - while you have the bill of sale and there are "No Tresspassing" signs, there is nothing (I repeat nothing) on the aircraft itself that proves that. You used the reference to brands on cows and it's probably a good one except that brands were recorded in a public record and most (if not all) lawmen and ranchers had copies of those lists. Unfortunately the airplane still shows registered to the original owner in the FAA database and hasn't been de-registered as destroyed, so someone could easily call the individual and claim to be the owner and no one would be the wiser. At the same time, when he arrived at the airfield, he could say he had bought the plane from so-and-so and those at the airport believe him because he may have had a bill of sale from the person who sold it to him, and he left with the airplane.

I just have a problem believing that someone would knowingly steal an aircraft and the post pictures of it on the internet, which leads me to believing that he's been duped and that both of you are the unforunate victims in someone's con. If it is true, then the person we all want is the person who perpetrated the whole misdeed- the con artist.

Second! (But I would call the feds)

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Magister Aviation
It's all in my book

Yeah, I am completely lost as well.

The F*** you phone call took some balls though.