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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:12 pm 
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I ran across a picture that reminded me of an interesting experience in Tanker 65 following a flight out of Porterville in 1982.This particular picture is at Alamogordo in 1980 and features Tanker 68,but that doesn't really matter.Here's the picture:

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Tanker 65 was N5237V,a PB-1W that's now in the R.A.F. Museum in London.For the 1982 fire season,my co-pilot,Gerry Glenn and I were based in Porterville on the CDF contract.One day in August,we were dispatched to a grass fire on the nearby Tule Indian Reservation.As it turned out,the Hotshot Crew was able to corral the fire without our help.We had to jettison half of our load of retardant to get down to landing weight.

That's an interesting point in itself.When Aero Union operated B-17's as tankers,nobody had ever seen a document that stated a maximum landing weight for the B-17.The published Gross Weight was 59,000 lbs,so that's what everyone used as a landing weight.Once Aero Union replaced their B-17's with C-54's,they "found" a document from the Air Force that was dated in 1956,I think.This listed a landing weight for the few B-17's that were still in the USAF inventory at that time as 54,000 lbs.This gave the C-54 a new advantage over the B-17 because we would now have to jettison $300-$400 worth of retardant to get down to the reduced landing weight and the C-54 could land loaded.This made a big difference with the CDF because they use tankers like fire engines and send them almost automatically when a smoke is reported and,as often as not, cancel the tankers a couple of minutes into a flight.

Back to the story.We dropped half of the load and Gerry landed the airplane on Porterville's Runway 30.Everything went normally until Gerry started to brake for the turn off at the end of the runway,which is a 120 degree right turn to the taxiway.Braking began about 1500 ft from the end of the runway.Two things happened fairly quickly.First,a warning light lit up on my subpanel below the instrument panel.For a couple of seconds,I tried to think what the light was for,as I'd only seen it light up once before.Then,Gerry said "I've got no Brakes!".

That's when I remembered the last time that I saw that light come on.That time it was taxi-ing into the pits at McCall when a metering valve in one of the brake master cylinders stuck open and started bypassing hydraulic fluid to the point that the pressue dropped to zero.I had a guarded switch for the electric hydraulic pump next to the warning light.

Back at Porterville,I held the pump switch in the manual position and hydraulic pressure started climbing to the point that we had brakes again.We figured that the pressure switch to restart the pump automatically must have failed.I unlocked the tailwheel and Gerry stated around the corner at the end of the runway when the hydraulic pressure dropped to zero again.

As we started into the grass between the runway and the taxiway,I took over and managed to get onto the taxiway by using differential power and a bit of rudder and aileron.The last two weren't a lot of help,as we were moving at a walking pace.I got back to the center of the taxiway and locked the tailwheel while Gerry went down into the nose where the airplane hydraulic system was located.He verified that the tank was empty and that we didn't have any spare fluid in the nose.

I shut down the inboards and the airplane slowed to around 5 mph with the outboards at idle.I figured that we'd better just stop where we were and regroup,so I shut down the outboards.I'd once read about a Liberian oil tanker that ran over a sailboat and took 7-8 miles to get stopped.That came to mind in Tanker 65 as it was down to walking speed,but,even with the tailwheel locked,it was drifting to the left side of the taxiway.I had full rudder and aileron in,but it did no good at that speed.

I had to fire up the outboards again and get back to the middle of the taxiway.Gerry had found a few quarts of hydraulic fluid back in the radio room where there was a completely indepenent hydraulic system for the retardant tank.He poured thev fluid in the main system tank and I tried building pressure,but it didn't work.Gerry found a wheel chock somewhere in the airplane and took it down into the nose walkway.I shut down the outboads again and Gerry tossed the chock out the nose hatch and it landed in about the same position as the chock in the picture.That did the trick.We stopped when the wheel hit the chock.

We got out and looked around for the source of the hydraulic leak.It turned out to be the flex line for the brake at the top of the right main gear strut.It had blown out.I found out later that this wasn't uncommon,although it was the first time that I'd heard about it.Apparently,somebody had one fail in flight and the fluid caught fire as it passed the turbo.

As I mentioned earlier,Tanker 65 had a completely separate hydraulic system for the retardant tank.The main pressure line for that system was exactly the right size to replace the blown brake line.We had an idea that we ran past Kenny Stubbs,our Director of Maintenance,in a phone call.We still had half a load of retardant on board,but,assuming the doors were over center in the tank,they should stay closed without any hydraulic pressure.Kenny agreed with that.We'd install the pressure line from the tank system in place of the blown brake line long enough to taxi to the tanker base and Kenny would make up a new line and replace the bad line permanently before we came on duty the next morning.In the meantime,Jim Baughman brought us several gallons of spare hydraulic fluid from the tanker base.

The first thing that we did was to build up full system pressure to be sure that the doors were closed.After that,Gerry bled off the tank hydraulic pressure to see what happened.We'd done this before with the tank loaded to change a line.We waited 10 minutes and everything looked fine,so Gerry pulled the pressure line off of the tank system.It was a tight fit and slimy with fluid.At about he time that got the replacement line installed,the two left retardant doors began to slowly creep open.There was a mad scramble to reinstall that line back onto the tank system and build up hydraulic pressure before all the doors and the remaining 900 gallons of retardant ended up all over the taxiway.Somehow,Laurel and Hardy came to mind at about this time.

The two empty doors were wide open by the time we got pressure built up.We got them closed and decided to cut our losses and leave the airplane where it was for the night.That was also a problem,as the taxiway was unlighted and Porterville is an uncontrolled field.We checked in at the airport office and the solution was to have the water department bring out a couple of sawhorses with blinking lights that we could place to the front and rear of T65 for the night.

Kenny came over the next morning and replaced the line,serviced the hydraulic ststem and even taxied 65 to the tanker base for us.Thinking back,it's unlikely that the two tank doors for the full tanks would have opened.The two that were jettisoned must not have locked overcenter,although we built up full system pressure prior to bleeding it off to remove the tank system line.65 had huge tank doors that often wouldn't close if you were above 140 mph after dropping.It wasn't unusual to look back and see the actuating cylinder for the forward tank door fully extended after a drop.In that case,I'd have to slow down to 120 mph and kick in a lot of rudder to get the air load to start the door closed.

One thing that got my attention for the next few weeks after losing the brakes was that it could have been a much more serious situation.There were a number of places that we went to that could easily have had us either run into another airplane or into a building or vehicle.There was always the possibility of hitting someone on the ramp.That almost happened that time at McCall as Bob Franklin,the tanker base manager was right in front of us leading us in.I was c/p then and remember Ralph Rensink (my pilot) yelling at Bob to get out of the way while he swung around out of the pit with differential power.I even tried to get TBM to rig a squat switch over-ride in a guarded switch,just in case retracting the gear might prevent a disaster,such as running into the fuel farm or Air Force One.Kenny was going to do it for me,but that was the last year that TBM flew B-17's as tankers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Here are some pictures of Tanker 65 showing the size of the tank doors:

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Here are some cockpit and interior shots:


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a few more pictures at Sequioa Field at different times:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Larry, have you ever worked with a USFS lead pilot by the name of Bill Allison?
Robbie :roll:

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Fly Fast Make Noise!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Larry,

I have some old instamatic photos of a B-17 tanker at Tri-City airport in East Tennessee, best guess is mid 70's. It had 22 on the vertical fin although it's black numbers on red. Also, it had the glass nose and a single red stripe down the fuselage separating the white top and bare metal bottom. My photos do not show the N number. Could this be the same T22?

Steve G


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Robbie,I worked with Bill Allison a few times.I think that the last time was near Ft. Meyers,Florida in 1999.He was in a Fed King Air and I was in DC-7 Tanker 62.

Steve,I would guess that your picture is probably of the same Tanker 22 that I flew,but most likely under it's previous registration N809Z.I checked through the WIX B-17 Registry,and the only T22 listed is Evergreen's.You need to keep in mind,however,that until 1975,all tanker numbers were issued regionally.California was/is USFS Region 5,so their letter prefix was "E".I think that Tanker 68 still had a small letter "E" on the tail in some of my pictures.Arizona/New Mexico make up Region 3,giving it the letter "C".Oregon/Washington make up Region 6 with the letter "F",and so on.

This worked okay with TBM's,A-26's,PBY's and others that seldom left their own regional borders.By the mid 70's,though,the fleet included faster and longer range tankers,such as DC-6's and DC-7's that were often send all around the country.I think that the incident that finally lead to national tanker numbers took place by Lake Isabella,near Bakersfield in 1974 when three Tanker 15's were orbitting the fire at the same time.

The point being,that up until 1975,there could have been more than one B-17 Tanker 22 at the same time and that the WIX Registry might not include all of these number changes.Here's a link to Evergreen's Tanker 22 in the registry;

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b17regis ... 83785.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:55 pm 
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Hello

There was only one B17 tanker 22, 44-83735/N807Z, modified as a tanker in 1969, owned by intermountain. In 1975 Evergreen aquired actives of the society and took over tanker 22 that became N207EV.

Before being tanker, this aircraft was used for CIA operations.
She was fitted with skyhook system, that permitted to pick up infiltrated agents.
You can see her in action in a James Bond' film, "Thunderballs".

Informations from "Final Cul, the post war B17 Flyng fortress: the survivors" by Scott Thompson

Thanks for sharing your treasures Larrys!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:26 pm 
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Sril wrote:
Hello

There was only one B17 tanker 22, 44-83735/N807Z, modified as a tanker in 1969, owned by intermountain. In 1975 Evergreen aquired actives of the society and took over tanker 22 that became N207EV.

Before being tanker, this aircraft was used for CIA operations.
She was fitted with skyhook system, that permitted to pick up infiltrated agents.
You can see her in action in a James Bond' film, "Thunderballs".

Informations from "Final Cul, the post war B17 Flyng fortress: the survivors" by Scott Thompson

Thanks for sharing your treasures Larrys!!!


I think you mean 44-83785


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:09 pm 
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Sril,I'm aware of the Intermountain connection with Tanker 22 and I have a picture of it somewhere with the Fulton Skyhook Gear installed.We had a couple of leftovers from that arrangement,which once included a set of antlers on the nose to capture the balloon cable.The pitot tube on T22 was repositioned to the top of the nose by Intermountain so that it wouldn't be damaged by the cable.It always reminded me of the refuelling probe on an A-6.You might be able to see the pitot tube in some of the T22 pictures.The tail turret area,which had been converted into an entry area for the person reeled in by the Fulton Gear was covered with a light framework of what looked like either light metal or wooden strips and then covered with fabric.You can probably also see that in the pictures of T22.

I believe that Steve is correct in stating the AF s/n as 44-83785,but there was some question as to whether or not this was actually the correct s/n for the airframe.I'll have to check with Chuck Ott for the details,but I think that it had to do with Intermountain having two B-17 airframes at one time and one of them going missing under mysterious circumstances.

Steve,while looking for a picture of T22 in it's former guise with the Fulton Skyhook Rig installed,I ran across a picture that should answer your original question:[img][img]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u303/tkr62/n809z.jpg[/img][/img]


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Larry,
Wow, those are great photos and stories on the fire bombers. You got me looking around the house for some old instamatic photos that I took when I lived at Casper, WY. During the summer months the B-17 fire bombers would stop in and operate when we had forest fires in the local area. Here are a couple black and white photos of one of the B-17 fire bombers. I remember that on its departure it did a low level fly-by on the field and dropped its load of slurry in the middle of the field between the runway and the ramp. Sorry no pictures of the departure.
Image
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Did you fly or see B30?
I did some quick searching on the internet and found that B17G N9323R (B30) later became (B37) before being retired from fire fighting service here in Mesa and is now on display at the Pima Air Museum.
Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:01 pm 
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Larry Kraus wrote:
Sril,I'm aware of the Intermountain connection with Tanker 22 and I have a picture of it somewhere with the Fulton Skyhook Gear installed.We had a couple of leftovers from that arrangement,which once included a set of antlers on the nose to capture the balloon cable.The pitot tube on T22 was repositioned to the top of the nose by Intermountain so that it wouldn't be damaged by the cable.It always reminded me of the refuelling probe on an A-6.You might be able to see the pitot tube in some of the T22 pictures.The tail turret area,which had been converted into an entry area for the person reeled in by the Fulton Gear was covered with a light framework of what looked like either light metal or wooden strips and then covered with fabric.You can probably also see that in the pictures of T22.

I believe that Steve is correct in stating the AF s/n as 44-83785,but there was some question as to whether or not this was actually the correct s/n for the airframe.I'll have to check with Chuck Ott for the details,but I think that it had to do with Intermountain having two B-17 airframes at one time and one of them going missing under mysterious circumstances.

Steve,while looking for a picture of T22 in it's former guise with the Fulton Skyhook Rig installed,I ran across a picture that should answer your original question:[img][img]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u303/tkr62/n809z.jpg[/img][/img]



That's it Larry. Thanks.


Steve G


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:26 pm 
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SN 44-85531 is the other number associated with T22. Freeman & Osborne's book lists 531 as being N809Z.

Steve G


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:32 pm 
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That's a great story about the brakes, or lack of. I can imagine the feeling of slow-motion disaster. If the chocks hadn't worked your C/P would've probably jumped out and grabbed the tail next. So I guess the tw only swivels and locks - no steering? I always wondered about the tank configuration, wondered if you still had access to the rear of the fuselage, but your picture cleared that up. Very cool.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:50 pm 
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Larry;
Thanks for all of the great photos and stories. My dad flew with Walt in 1979 or 1980. I can remember going over to his house when they were on days off. I can remember that Paso was the first place I saw a P-2V air tanker, one of Evergreens came in there for a fire bust, that was when the C-119s were grounded after #88 with Lou and Ted had crashed on a fire outside of Santa Barbra. I remember that dad had called mom that morning saying they were being dispatched to a fire near Santa Barbra and he did not know if he would be home for dinner. So later on were watching the idiot box (TV) and the news came on about an air tanker that had crashed on this same fire, so as my mom and I are watching this the phone rings and it was like time had stopped, so she answers the phone and it was dad thank god! He told mom that the crash had happened when they were on there way there; they had actually got diverted to the scene of the crash to help the guys on the ground get the fire stopped that was caused by #88. After they did their drops they went to the tanker base in Santa Barbra, where they were put on hold by the Forest Service. They were later told that all C-119's were out of service, so Walt convinced them to let them go home back to Paso. So the next day my dad is out there pulling inspection panels and getting it ready for the group of maintenance guys coming up from Hemet. I can remember that spring down in Hemet hanging out with Lou and Ted as they were getting #88 ready for the fire season. #88 was dirtiest C-119 HVFS had, they would wash it and after one flight it would look the same. Ted was always cleaning of the N# on the boom so you could read it, there is a picture of #88 in book that was taken in Santa Barbra the year they crashed, and the book is Workhorse Props by Gerry Manning. I remember dad saying that #88 it was the heaviest C-119 in the fleet also. That next year dad and Roger Stark flew the Santa Barbra contract in #86 I think the last year my dad flew with HVFS was in 1981 or 1982 he had a lot of pressure from mom to get out of the industry after watching so many friends and coworkers pass away. Roger ended up flying S-2's after that. Sorry to talk about the bad stuff Larry, It’s just how the pieces of the puzzle work out in my memory. I always liked the C-119 and loaded many of them in Reno during my tanker base days but I am glad to see that they do not work fires anymore. Now if the Feds would just bring back the Douglas products! You have never ever heard of a DC series airplane have a structural failure while fire fighting.

Scott………..


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 Post subject: Fulton Skyhook
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:55 pm 
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...

..info on the Fulton Skyhook...including a photo of the B-17 nose configuration...

http://eaglespeak.blogspot.com/2008/01/ ... -feet.html


...here's a video...


http://gizmodo.com/347064/skyhook-surfa ... -ride-ever

...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:39 pm 
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Scott,I flew about 10 hours in a couple of H&P's Boxcars near the end of the 1981 Alaska Fish Haul.I liked the airplane.The C-119 tankers did a good job,but several very good people died in Boxcar accidents over which they had no control.I'll post a few pictures of Hemet Valley Boxcars.I'll do this in 2 posts because I just tried it in one and it elongated the page.Too much information!

These pictures were taken at Fox Field in 1980

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