Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:07 pm
Hi Feather,
Indeed, Clive Denney is correct. The brave photographer in question was Phil Makanna of 'Ghosts' fame; who went back and got Clive out with a potential fire about to develop. The Duxford fire crews were there shortly afterwards. A potentially nasty incident resolved without loss of life. I had a chat with Clive the following day who was little the worse for wear, the band aid being about the only evidence of the mishap. Not the same story without a helmet.
Credit where due! Clive's business is here: www.vintagefabrics.co.uk and Phil's is here: www.ghosts.com
Cheers!
Indeed, Clive Denney is correct. The brave photographer in question was Phil Makanna of 'Ghosts' fame; who went back and got Clive out with a potential fire about to develop. The Duxford fire crews were there shortly afterwards. A potentially nasty incident resolved without loss of life. I had a chat with Clive the following day who was little the worse for wear, the band aid being about the only evidence of the mishap. Not the same story without a helmet.
Credit where due! Clive's business is here: www.vintagefabrics.co.uk and Phil's is here: www.ghosts.com
Cheers!
helmet
Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:35 am
Tell me then. Why did Japanese Suicide pilots wear helmets?
Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:10 am
This is an interesting thread. I have an old accident report from an accident that occurred when I was based at RNZAF Wigram, Christchurch, NZ.
A pupil pilot and instructor were flying in a CT-4B Airtrainer over the Southern Alps and during an attempt by the instructor to climb over the Clent Hills saddle, the aircraft struck a downdraft. The plane hit the ridge and rolled, ending up inverted. The instructor, Garrick Beats (a very nice bloke) was killed.
The student was virtually uninjured. My job dealt with all the safety and survival gear and flying clothing. We got all the gear back for the investigation (plus the wreck was reassembled in our hangar and sat there many months, very macabre), and I remember seeing the student's ALPHA helmet. There were impressions pushed into the front of his helmet that perfectly matched switches on the panel, several millimetres deep. Despite the inertia wheels acting correctly in his belts, his head impacted very hard with the panel. His helmet saved him. Had he been wearing a leather helmet or merely a headset he'd have had those dents in his head.
Sadly the helmet could not save Garrick. He died from other injuries. But every time I saw the student later on, as he was able to continue his course, I always thought to myself "You lucky, lucky young man. Our helmet saved you."
Steve, are the Campbell helmets comfortable to wear? Are there any disadvantages to them? Also, out of interest, do they cost much different from a standard helmet like an ALPHA, SPH4 or other type of bonedome?
A pupil pilot and instructor were flying in a CT-4B Airtrainer over the Southern Alps and during an attempt by the instructor to climb over the Clent Hills saddle, the aircraft struck a downdraft. The plane hit the ridge and rolled, ending up inverted. The instructor, Garrick Beats (a very nice bloke) was killed.
The student was virtually uninjured. My job dealt with all the safety and survival gear and flying clothing. We got all the gear back for the investigation (plus the wreck was reassembled in our hangar and sat there many months, very macabre), and I remember seeing the student's ALPHA helmet. There were impressions pushed into the front of his helmet that perfectly matched switches on the panel, several millimetres deep. Despite the inertia wheels acting correctly in his belts, his head impacted very hard with the panel. His helmet saved him. Had he been wearing a leather helmet or merely a headset he'd have had those dents in his head.
Sadly the helmet could not save Garrick. He died from other injuries. But every time I saw the student later on, as he was able to continue his course, I always thought to myself "You lucky, lucky young man. Our helmet saved you."
Steve, are the Campbell helmets comfortable to wear? Are there any disadvantages to them? Also, out of interest, do they cost much different from a standard helmet like an ALPHA, SPH4 or other type of bonedome?
Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:50 pm
Tell me then. Why did Japanese Suicide pilots wear helmets?
You trying to be funny?
Same reason as everyone else. To arrive alive. In their case, the arrival was a different destination to a normal one, but getting knocked out en-route wouldn't please the Emperor...
Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:49 pm
Dave,
from David Lowy with the Spit to a mate and his wife/daughter with matching white helmets for their Tiger flying, not a word of complaint. The only drawback I see is that presently an oxygen mask adaption isn't offered, but for the >90% of customers, it's not a problem. The only reason I didn't buy one was I found out about them too late after buying my bonedome.
The key is that they're individually measured to ensure comfort. Close as you can get to the moulded inner shell in the Mil helmets.
G'day
from David Lowy with the Spit to a mate and his wife/daughter with matching white helmets for their Tiger flying, not a word of complaint. The only drawback I see is that presently an oxygen mask adaption isn't offered, but for the >90% of customers, it's not a problem. The only reason I didn't buy one was I found out about them too late after buying my bonedome.
The key is that they're individually measured to ensure comfort. Close as you can get to the moulded inner shell in the Mil helmets.
G'day
Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:18 pm
Thanks Feather,
So when civilians usually buy a helmet, it is not fitted to size then? In the Air Force we fitted it individually to a person, a sloppy helmet is almost as bad as none at all.
Also, another reason the Kamikase pilots wore helmets was probably so they could hear what was going on in their R/T sets.
So when civilians usually buy a helmet, it is not fitted to size then? In the Air Force we fitted it individually to a person, a sloppy helmet is almost as bad as none at all.
Also, another reason the Kamikase pilots wore helmets was probably so they could hear what was going on in their R/T sets.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:07 pm
Hello Feather 3.
I don't see why a helmet is necessary if all of the proper procedures are followed. In the T-6, I think it is best to leave canopy open on takeoff and landing. Also, the shoulder harness should be secure. I don't see how it's any different than a C-150
Chris
I don't see why a helmet is necessary if all of the proper procedures are followed. In the T-6, I think it is best to leave canopy open on takeoff and landing. Also, the shoulder harness should be secure. I don't see how it's any different than a C-150
Chris
Helmet in a T-6
Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:49 pm
During Freedom Flight on 8-9-95 Lance Aircraft's SNJ landed long at a airport in VA and went down an embankment. The pilot who wasn't wearing a helmet hit his head VERY hard on the instrument panel and suffered a severe brain injury. Concensis was that with a helmet his injuries who have been very much reduced. Yes, you should wear a helmet in a T-6!
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001207X04164&ntsbno=BFO95LA078&akey=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001207X04164&ntsbno=BFO95LA078&akey=1
Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:55 pm
Yes, you should wear a helmet in a T-6
It sounds like the Lance T-6 pilot didn't have his shoulder harness secured. You say yes you should, but for no clear reason if your shoulder harness is on.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:08 pm
Hi Harvard IV,
I'm not a pilot, and far from an expert, but to reprise the takeoff accident in the T-6 at Duxford alluded to earlier:
The pilot is a very careful, experienced warbird pilot with time on many types including Spitfire and Hurricane. I understand straps were done up as per usual, inc sholder harness. A normal take off went wrong. The aircraft slewed on it's belly, and I believe that's when the contact between helmet and canopy happened. It shouldn't have, but it did.
Sure, systems and routines should prevent problems. But when they don't, it's good to have protection. Personally, I don't like my photos to have pilots wearing bonedomes in; but at the end of the day it's their head, their choice. I'm not going to tell anyone what to wear, but there's pleanty of evidence to support wearing a helmet saves heads - from microlights upwards.
You please youself!
Best,
I'm not a pilot, and far from an expert, but to reprise the takeoff accident in the T-6 at Duxford alluded to earlier:
The pilot is a very careful, experienced warbird pilot with time on many types including Spitfire and Hurricane. I understand straps were done up as per usual, inc sholder harness. A normal take off went wrong. The aircraft slewed on it's belly, and I believe that's when the contact between helmet and canopy happened. It shouldn't have, but it did.
Sure, systems and routines should prevent problems. But when they don't, it's good to have protection. Personally, I don't like my photos to have pilots wearing bonedomes in; but at the end of the day it's their head, their choice. I'm not going to tell anyone what to wear, but there's pleanty of evidence to support wearing a helmet saves heads - from microlights upwards.
You please youself!
Best,
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:11 pm
HarvardIV wrote:Yes, you should wear a helmet in a T-6
It sounds like the Lance T-6 pilot didn't have his shoulder harness secured. You say yes you should, but for no clear reason if your shoulder harness is on.
Interesting discussion. I always wear a helmet (and nomex, gloves, etc) in the T-6.
The first person I met in the warbird movement had a nice dent in his forehead from gyro in the T-6 after an engine failure. He spent a bit of time in the hospital from that.
I know of several other T-6 accidents where the pilots were wearing their shoulder harnesses (including the Lance accident) where the pilot sustained a head injury or was killed. I am not a physician, but from my understanding the body stretches incredibly in such an accident and the shoulder straps do not restrain you enough to keep you from hitting the instrument panel.
As for the nomex, gloves, parachutes etc, you only have to hear Doug Jeanes or Art Vance tell their story to make a true believer of you. If you ever get a chance ask Doug to show you his helmet. Without it, and the visor, he wouldn't be around today.
Gentlemen, these aren't Cessnas. They are military aircraft and they need to be treated with respect, at least in my opinion.
Last edited by Tim Savage on Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:12 pm
I'm definitely no expert either James, and good and sensible remarks made. However, it still sounds like his canopy was closed on takeoff. It looks like a procedure may have been missed. And hey maybe his canopy was open and it slid shut on impact too.
Chris
Chris
helmet
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:15 pm
Never ass-ume. You know what happens.
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!!??
Right????
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!!??
Right????
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:17 pm
Hey Tim:
Since you put it that way, it sounds like a pretty good idea!
Chris
Since you put it that way, it sounds like a pretty good idea!
Chris
Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:40 pm
H IV,
My recollection may be incorrect, but the fatality to which I referred was very similar to the circumstances described by Jack & Tim.
In my own case, the Winjeel requires the canopy closed for flight, so you're stuck!!
G'day
My recollection may be incorrect, but the fatality to which I referred was very similar to the circumstances described by Jack & Tim.
In my own case, the Winjeel requires the canopy closed for flight, so you're stuck!!
G'day