What if... the Bf 109 was not produced?

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:43 pm

Initailly Messerschmit was not allowed to submit an entry for the fighter specification but managed to do so through political connections. What if these connections failed and the Bf 109 did not enter into the competition and thus was not chosen as the initial modern monoplane fighter for the Luftwaffe?

For arguments sake lets say the He 112 was chosen instead.

Elwyn · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:21 pm

I get the impression that a fair number of 109's were banged up in landing and take-off accidents due to the narrow gear. I wonder if it might have been a little worse for the allies if the main early axis fighter had been one that had a wider gear.

hairy · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:27 pm

Elwyn wrote:

I wonder if it might have been a little worse for the allies if the main early fighter had been one that didn't suffer as many landing and take-off accidents due to the narrow gear.

darn you beat me by about 30 sec. A bit further down the line the FW-190 would have ruled supreme. The way it should have been as the Me-109 was a seriously flawed a/c. :wink:

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:47 pm

Elwyn wrote:

I get the impression that a fair number of 109's were banged up in landing and take-off accidents due to the narrow gear. I wonder if it might have been a little worse for the allies if the main early axis fighter had been one that had a wider gear.

Roughly one third of Bf 109 production (around 11,000) was lost due to landing and take-off accidents. And thats a very good point that I wasn't even thinking about (which is the point of these discussions, to help us think outside the tennets of historical data), the benefits to the Luftwaffe if the 109 hadn't been chosen.

what would the impact over the course of the war if the Luftwaffe had an additional 11,000 (or lets be pessimistic, say 5,000) fighters at its disposal? More importantly, a significant body of pilots who were killed or wounded in these accidents would be available. What impact would that have?

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:45 pm

Scott
The landing accident rate is an exaggerated myth, check this excellent article that debunks a lot of the mis conceptions about the 109

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/109myths/

Dave

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:08 pm

DaveM2 wrote:

Scott
The landing accident rate is an exaggerated myth, check this excellent article that debunks a lot of the mis conceptions about the 109

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/109myths/

Dave

Heh, thats a whole different discussion...

And I won't get into it that the article refers to it as a Me 109 :roll:

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:44 pm

Bf-109 and Me-109 are both correct. Official Luftwaffe and production documents refer to it as both :wink:

Dave

HarvardIV · **Joined:** Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1437

The later models with the DB-605 had speeds at altitude of 450 mph or more. I don't think it would have mattered, because in my opinion the 109 probably had it's strong points, different than the 190. Either way more of the 190s would be built. I think the 190 except for the D model was even slower than the late model 109 at altitude.

I think it would have turned out the same, because the Germans still had a shortage of fuel and good pilots. In my humble opinion, overall the piloting skill and enough fuel is what mattered the most. It looks to me like speeds were pretty close. With the exception of extreme differences in performance, I think a good pilot can exploit the advantage of any WW2 plane. I wasn't there, just my opinion on this topic.

Chris

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:12 am

HarvardIV wrote:

The later models with the DB-605 had speeds at altitude of 450 mph or more. I don't think it would have mattered, because in my opinion the 109 probably had it's strong points, different than the 190. Either way more of the 190s would be built. I think the 190 except for the D model was even slower than the late model 109 at altitude.

I think it would have turned out the same, because the Germans still had a shortage of fuel and good pilots. In my humble opinion, overall the piloting skill and enough fuel is what mattered the most. It looks to me like speeds were pretty close. With the exception of extreme differences in performance, I think a good pilot can exploit the advantage of any WW2 plane. I wasn't there, just my opinion on this topic.

Chris

The engine advantage wouldn't matter too much in regards to this discussion since more than likely it would have been fitted to later models of the He 112 or He 100, thus increasing thier speed. The He 112 was more manueverable than the Bf 109V1 and I don't doubt that this would be improved over time. Granted this isn't automatic since alot of the later model aircraft on both sides recieved higher powered engines but usually also recieved "improvements" that reduced the gains, mostly additional armor and weapons.

The pilot issue was of course the Luftwaffe's biggest problem, rivalling the fuel shortages as a reason for thier defeat.

Assuming the He 112 and later variations replaced the Bf 109 and thus reduced the pilots lost to accidents (also assuming that the He 112 didn't have any serious pilot consuming vices) how would the additional fighters effect the bomber streams of 1942-43?

My opinion is that the impact while significant would be inconsequential and probably only extend the war by months if at all. The true effect would be on the number of bombers lost by the USAAF.

JägerMarty · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:07 am

What if the Bf109 was not produced??

what a terrible thing to say!!

interesting discussion though.

Crates · **Joined:** Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:08 am **Posts:** 2

What about the impact on BOB ?

Was the range of the 112 any better than the 109. If so the germans would have had more time over Britain. The greater manouvrability allied to the safer ground handling may have meant greater numbers of 112s over the skies of Kent for longer periods.

Given the BOB was such a close run thing, would the 112 have tipped the balance.

Germany wins the BOB & then nowhere for the 8th to base its bombers.

Just my 2 penneth

Downunder · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:50 am

You're on to something there crates. 112's taking out more RAF fighters and so letting more german bombers through to targets and returning home. Without significant bomber loses, the germans continue bombing England and win BOB. Mmm... Maybe?

Dan K · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:36 pm

The 109 gained a tremendous amount of influence for Messerschmitt concerning future designs as well (over, say, the Heinkel firm). Something tells me that if the 112 had served in a greater capacity, we would have seen the He 280 selected for mass production over the Me 262, as well as a focus on the He 219 as primary night fighter.

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:39 pm

Crates wrote:

What about the impact on BOB ?

Was the range of the 112 any better than the 109. If so the germans would have had more time over Britain. The greater manouvrability allied to the safer ground handling may have meant greater numbers of 112s over the skies of Kent for longer periods.

Given the BOB was such a close run thing, would the 112 have tipped the balance.

Germany wins the BOB & then nowhere for the 8th to base its bombers.

Just my 2 penneth

The range for the Bf 109E was approximately 412 miles vs. 684 for the He 112. Thats a significant difference and might have proved telling.

For max. speed the far comparison woul be versus the Bf 109C which was 292mph at approx 15,000 feet versus the He 112 which was 317mph at ??? ft. If the He 112 was fitted with the DB601 series or later the 605 then this speed would have been increased dramatically.

Not to mention that the He 112 had 2 20mm and 2 7.9mm guns vs the Bf 109C 4 7.9mm machine guns.

The He 112 in similar numbers to the Bf 109 could have been devastating over England

Ollie · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:57 pm

What if the 109 wasn't produced? Well, Hyperscale would be in big troubles to find something to put on its pages! :lol:

Scott, never mind the He 112, I'd go for the He 100D, now that was one mean plane!

And I wouldn' take all the things said in the article about the 109 as Holy Truth.

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What if... the Bf 109 was not produced?

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