Warbird Information Exchange

I know myself that living in New England most of them don't have any manners and are rude ( No Offense meant towards any of the members on this board ) The worst thing you could call me would be a Yankee. Those injuns way back should have flung a few arrows instead of bringing a turkey because if they only knew a yankees word don't mean sh$&. Long live the land of the bonnie blue star!

Note: Scott please permit, a little off subject and no offense intended:

A guy a knew from college was from there, and he was fairly ill mannered. As far as what I can tell some are good and some are bad everywhere. The best thing to do is be a gentleman yourself, and set the example.

Chris

Rob, it doesn't matter..

Hi Brad:



Where've you been exactly? Let me guess Banda Acha? Tsunami relief? What was going on, that made you say the above? Did you run into a bunch of wild jungle bunnies with machetes or what? I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to hear about it.

okay, perhaps rogue or loose cannon might be a better description than cowboy ( I agree Brad, I've known some very good people who are jackaroos, our version of cowboys so I take exception to the term being applied in such a manner but colloquialism tends to make it fit. ) and just barging in and bribing your way through and effectively stealing from that country, yes I do see it as stealing as you are going in there with no better intention than to remove unlawfully a part of their heritage, could very well make it impossible for those who do things legitimately and through the correct channels to do anything further there.

so what is better, the bribery which gets 1 person to gather maybe 3 or 4 airframes in from the cold and result in possibly lengthy and expensive legal battles over ownership and entry rights or the correct channels which might result in 3 or 4 people salvaging 2 or 3 or more airframes each which can freely be moved about the globe?

personally, even though it might take longer and cost more over time and result in further deteriorated airframes being recovered, I'd rather see the 8 or more saved airframes than the 3 or 4 gathered by the one loose cannon.

So, chris, unless you intend a massive invasion of like minded people all bribing their way to the ends they want ( something certain to gain the interest of the relevant police and other authorities ) I can't see your method gaining anyone except maybe you ( if you avoid jail, being shot or a myriad of other problems including entry problems with the airframe even if called aircraft parts ) a few airframes which may very well have been more damaged by the rushed and furtive method of gathering it together for shipment than waiting and doing things according to the legalistic and lengthy method presently being used by noted recoverers of these aircraft.

Sorry but I'd rather see people behaving as 5th columnists to acheive these recoveries than as rogues and outlaws as the rogues and outlaws only make things harder and longer to manage for everyone else.

good example is how the postal service going into the US is now going from here. before a lot of the changes due to 9/11 it was possible to post almost anything from here to there. now it is almost impossible to send a lot of things the same way. I am not saying you are a terrorist but remember one thing, the terrorists didn't take anything from america and they didn't bring in anything except themselves to use against america, they just used what was there against america. So why is it harder to send things to america? because now everyone there is scared of what might happen. So, if you start making their tourist attractions 'disappear' they might start making things harder for people to visit/see/recover what is left.

Hopefully I have not upset people with what I have put in this as I am only trying to talk sense here about barging in and taking things without legally owning them to start with.

that being said, I do agree that with some of the places a covert operation might be safer and more likely to succeed but you never know who might get wind of it and decide they want it for their own after you've got it from the jungle and have it almost ready to go on board a ship. I seem to remember there's been more than one recovery which had everything all organised only to have the aircraft impounded just when it'd hit civilisation and I think one of them at least was in canada which I believe has relatively open borders with the US. Can you imagine if they'd discovered that you'd grabbed that and were about to 'disappear'
with it to the US without getting permission first? anyone care to say Mounties?

okay enough ranting, I've said my bit and hopefully made sense and not upset anyone.

Sorry Jeff, but you've misconstued everything I;ve said on this board in a very wordy manner. Only read about a paragraph before I got bored.

Chris

Okay, Rob and HarvIV chill out. I know this is a passionate topic but you guys are skating on the personal attack rule and in general pissing me off. This is a forum for discussion, crest puffing, strutting around try to figure out who has bigger genitalia.

Rob, we all know you have experience in aircraft recovery. You've said your piece so let HarvIV take the information and use it or ignore it if he chooses. And stop taking everything so darn personally, stop throwing hissy fits at EVERYTHING, your an adult, act like it.

HarvIV I know less of your background but will give the benefit of the doubt. I advise you to listen to Rob but its your right not too. I would also advise you to avoid asking questions and then if you don't like the answer saying it doesn't matter... at times you come across like your 12.

I'm tired of this, I feel like I'm a romper room teacher. Both of you, grow up or get out.

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I'll try to be more professional, but the problem is we're in a public forum. It's difficult to stay on an even keel with such a diverse crowd. I think that's the trouble Homer had too.

Chris

Chris,

No, I've not been to Banda Aceh and haven't had anything to do with the tsunami stuff yet. I've been in Iraq and Afghanistan pretty much since the tsunami. Although, that may be changeing. At least that's what my scheduler tells me. (Australia, are you listening??)

I've been to Medan, Palembang, Linga, Tanjungpandan, Cirebon, Surakarta, Pasuruan and three or four other places when I was still on C-130s. (I might add that we didn't always land at the actual airport in these towns, sometimes we landed at other locations nearby) In this last year, I went to Jakarta a few times with a C-17. Never in my career have I had such a feeling of being unsafe as I did in Indonesia. I can't put my finger on exactly what was wrong, but I got the distinct feeling that if I ever got caught alone somewhere, I might not make it back alive. I've thought that a few times in various places in Africa and South America. And once in the red light district of Frankfurt, Germany. But it really bothered me in Indonesia.

When I was five or six years old, my Aunt and Uncle back in Texas had a foreign exchange student from there. I think she was from around Jakarta, but I'm not 100% sure. Anyhow, she told my Aunt that her family wasn't happy at all that she was going to live in America for a year. Her older brothers basically disowned her for coming over here. It was all over that "Islam is a religion of peace and America is full of infidels" thing. That was back in 1978 or so. I can't imagine that we are thought of much better now.

One last thing. I've been to over 100 countries and territories in my career. It's been my experience that State Department travel advisories are generally pretty accurate! I'm scared of very little, ex-wives, midgets, muslim extreamists, polar bears, panthers, people that drink tequila straight from the bottle, NASCAR fans, soccer hooligans and the occasional circus clown. But I tend to follow the travel advisories just to be safe.

Good luck to ya!

_________________
Brad

Hi Brad:

Good explanation. I did talk to a fellow at the airport today, who said basically the same thing as you. In his words they are all muslim, and they hate anyone who is white or non-muslim they are considered as infidels. Typically, he said that all muslim type countries have problems with civil war. Countries such as Sudan, Indonesia, and Iraq. They all are poor as well.

An Aussie gentleman mentioned that Indonesia=(Vietnam+Iraq)x50.

On a more positive note, did you happen to see if there were any WW2 aircraft dumps in eastern Java anywhere?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris
I'm not trying heat things back up on this subject, but, I need to throw my two cents worth in. Don't discount what Rob Rohr and others have been trying to tell you. What you do is your own business and you can go about things in your own fashion, BUT, there are others out there who have been working on recoveries "By The Book" and if you are not carefull in your own attempts, you could set others back in theirs or end them completely. There is a perception of Americans as all being(pardon the expression)"Cowboys", out to do things as they darn well please and to hell with everyone else. I know that some of what you've heard is like a lecture from Miss Manners, but , the Good Ol' Boy network will only get you so far, then dealing as a diplomat becomes a neccessity. Working for a government entity set me straight on that years ago. Now as for Rob, his enthusiasm for the hunt is as high as anyone I've ever know. But, having been a hunter, he learned as we all did that shooting a deer legally was always a better way. The wardens never take away a deer shot with a license in season. BUT, the wardens always seem to catch the poachers around here. Then you loose your deer(no meat this winter),your license(No more privilage to get meat) and your gun(no more ability to get meat at all ) Those are lessons we YANKEES take to heart! 'Nough preachin', 'nough said. Good Luckin your Endevours. I
Hope it works out and we all see another bird saved.
Just a Little Friendly Advice From Another darn YANKEE!(Also Born in Cowboy Country)
Don

_________________
I never said the jokes were Good, they're just Free! You gets whatchyas pays for!

Sure Don:

However it's not the advise, but when it's given in a rude and obnoxious manner it's thrown out and treated as garbage as a whole.

pity you got bored, you might have found that wordy though it was my reply was not rude or obnoxious.

sorry but to me you seem to come across as the sort of person who asks a question knowing exactly how you'd answer it and when it doesn't agree with your answer you ignore it anyway. I hope one day you learn that people have 2 ears and 1 mouth and should use them according to the numbers.

sorry for the personalism of this commentary scott but as you can see I addressed it due to a percieved attitude to my posts and tried to keep it civil.