Warbird Information Exchange

No, Mudge, I'm not a lawyer at all, just someone who has observed lots of accidents in my flying career and how initial "official" reports can be flawed at times. NTSB reports are sometimes wrong in these preliminary reports, hence my comments. I'm just saying, let's wait, it's still too early to tell what happened. Too many unknowns.

Muddyboots, there is a HUGE difference between an experienced pilot and an experienced pilot in TYPE. That is what I was referring to. No one in their right mind, including Lone Star, would put an inexperienced, meaning low time pilot, in an extremely rare aircraft worth several million dollars. That just doesn't happen. I was referring to experience in type. That makes a big difference.

I don't know who the Hurricane pilot was, but based on the fact that this was a new restoration and the plane's first airshow appearance, he probably didn't have much time in Hurricane's. Most typical warbird display pilots flying for museums have mega hours in taildraggers and are checked out in several warbirds of similar design/performance.

The Hurricane pilot undoubtedly was no exception here. Unless he happened to also fly Jerry Yagen's, Tom Freidken's or Paul Allen's Hurricane's, I'm guessing that he probably was very inexperienced in Hurricane's. Was this a factor? I don't know, and that is up to the NTSB to determine. That was my whole point regarding experience level.

Regarding the brake, that is one pilot's viewpoint. I have researched many, many accidents where pilots have thought they did something "in the heat of battle" and in reality didn't. It doesn't matter about experience level and it can happen to anybody. Flying is a dangerous business, by default, and you must always bring your "A" game when you fly. Flying is nothing but risk analysis and mitigation. Sometimes pilots lose, and it can happen to anybody, regardless of experience level. If Chuck Yeager can run a perfectly good T-6 off a runway due to his own poor decisions, then nobody is immune.

Interesting how quickly this discussion, as so often occurs online, has lost sight of the original topic. Yes it is only a Preliminary Report and as such is short of many details and possible revision BUT from my understanding of english it seems that there is no doubt about the basic fact that the accident occured after the Hurricane crossed over the centerline during landing rollout during a planned "staggered" landing............... While the details of pilot experience and currency, maintenance, the type of brake failure, etc. will help us understand why the Hurricane crossed the centerline it is doubthful that they will cause a change in that basic given. No doubt the preflight briefing for the staggered landing will be an area of considerable interest to the NTSB, possible even more then the noted failure of a brake on a 60 year old aircraft.

The comment questioning whether the Hurricane pilot made a radio call advising that he had crossed the runway centerline is almost beyond comment.......................at that point in time his goal was maintaining control of the aircraft and hopefully returning to his side of the runway. To make a radio call at that point would have ignored one of the most basic tenents of good airmanship.........Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, and been a distraction.

Because this was not a high profile accident (except to the participants and WIXers) I suspect the final report will be very similar to the Preliminary Report with the addition of aircraft and pilot details.

Much of the commentary here has been over the type of details one would expect the owners legal reps may quibble over but they don't alter the basic given of what the NTSB has reported.

Tom-

Obviously one must maintain aircraft control at all times, that is basic airmanship 101, but I was referring to when things were in control. Did he have time to make a call? Could it have been made in a manner early enough so that Bill could have gone around? I don't know and that's the only reason I brought it up. These are questions that need to be asked by the NTSB. I was not suggesting that he make a radio call instead of maintaining his side of the runway. That would be ridiculous.

Hi Bill
I really feel for you old chap. I stared long and lovingly at your beautiful aircraft at Oshkosh in 2005 and then was lucky to be at that satellite field when you flew in there. Doubt you remember me I was the Brit who has a load of 12v Merlin stuff and a Hurri static rebuild and a Spit fuz. Your Spit is a credit to you.

I was so saddened at the incident but so happy that neither of you were hurt. Others have expressed feelings better than I can...but I pray that you and your bird have wind under your wings again soon.

If there is anything a Brit can do let me know.

Keep your chin up and hope things improve soon

Tony

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Cheers
Tony
check my website!
www.airdefencecollection.co.uk

From the photos and description posted here when the Hurricane crossed the centerline both planes were on rollout and relatively slow, way too late to go-around.

Tom-

Thanks for noticing us little guys. Now take a look at my next thread on staggered landings...

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

My point in posting the prelim report was not a rush to judgement – it was a relief to me that the report seemed to be pointing toward exoneration for Bill. It was not to put blame on the hurri pilot - if the hurri deviated from the plan, for mechanical failure or otherwise, once that happened there was nothing (it would seem) Bill could do to avoid it. I am not naive enough to think that this puts an end to the matter, or that what is in the report is now set in stone. It was merely a relief at the results of the beginning of the process.

OK...OK...maybe I was a bit too premature with my "smack-down". Having lived in the DC area all my life and having dealt, firsthand, with many of the bureaucrats, I should have known better than to accept, without challenge, any report that they can come up with in less than a year. (Even then, be skeptical 'cause more often than not, the report will defy logic.)

My apologies to any of youse troops I may have offended.

Mudge the contrite

ps. As far as accident injury goes...You all need to learn the first words you speak to anyone at the scene of an accident you're involved in:

"Oh my back...Oh my back...Don't touch me. I can't feel my legs."
(Assuming you're not at fault, of course.)

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Land of the free because of the brave

Mudge-

I think your original reading of the Preliminary Report was absolutely correct, the discussion is really about details of the circumstances that led to the Hurricane crosing the centerline.

Tom-

The original newspapers story mentioned checking the Spits brakes. I think they got that backwards. I think it's very clear that it wasn't Bill's fault here. That doesn't mean the other pilot caused it. From my point of view he got handed a big ol sh*t sandwich and the worst possible moment. It's important to remember it's a 'accident'. If this facilitates Bill being able to repair the Spit then great. We can give more support to the Hurricane's rebuild!

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Don't touch my junk!!

I don't know about the US, but the AAIB reports (in the UK) are not intended to apportion blame, but to investigate the causes to enable prevention of future accidents. A critical concept here, it seems.

Using them as hammers to beat people with legally will lead to restrictions in the presentation and proper use of reporting and professional investigation for future accident prevention.

Leave your litigations attitudes at the door, in other words.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

1. Everyone seems to be missing a safety point here. Why are we (the warbird airshow crowd) still landing aircraft with another still on the runway? We did it in the military and it was "sporty" then with a lot of practice, so why are we civilians, with less practice, taking the chance of damaging a multi-million Dollar airplane or worse, injuring someone? (sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now)(Hyde Park corner for you in the UK)

2. The pilot of the Hurri is a very experienced, high power, tail-dragger pilot. Who out there is a high time, current, Hurricane pilot?

If you don't do this, it will take so long to recover the aircraft that the crowd will get bored and not come back next year. Absolute safety (if there is such a thing) is trumped by money. Of course if the crowd didn't come because the show was boring there wouldn't be any money to support flying the aircraft. I think that the pilots, airshow operator/organizer, spectator and safety needs have to be balanced. It would likely be more safe to truck the aircraft in and tow them around with tugs, but you wouldn't sell many hot dogs with an event like that!

"but you wouldn't sell many hot dogs with an event like that!"
Or t-shirts....