My Thanks to So Many

[mlenoch]

Marineair..........I must jump in.
Where in the HECK have you seen formation landings?
WE DO NOT DO THEM IN THE WARBIRD COMMUNITY NOR TEACH THEM!!!
Get it?
VL

[Tom]

Marineair..........I must jump in.
Where in the HECK have you seen formation landings?
WE DO NOT DO THEM IN THE WARBIRD COMMUNITY NOR TEACH THEM!!!
Get it?
VL

Vlado:
I know Marineair pretty well.
I have done formation landings with him in T-34s.
They still consider themselves part of the warbird community.

[Bill Greenwood]

I have done several formation landings in T-34s. It is a lot of fun, but remember you are in a group of like planes, pretty much same speed, weight, power, etc. Also the Mentor is probably the easiest plane to land ever. It has fabulous visibilty, you can practically see your own nosewheel. It has good control effectiveness, easy handling at low speeds, you can approach down to about 50 knots, and docile stall, and good brakes. And the T-34 group does, or did a lot of good formation training.
I have never done a formation landing in a tailwheel fighter, and I can't really recall seeing one either.

[mlenoch]

I'm sorry for the 'quick' comment. I can reference only the fighter side of the warbird community, where formation landings are not part of the curriculum.
Yes, T-34s are part of the warbird community (as well, T-6s & T-28s). I do not know if they teach formation landings. I see Lima-Lima at airshows in their T-34s do single ship sequenced landings, but I do not recall seeing them do formation landings...I just cannot recall that aspect.
VL

[Pogo]

It has fabulous visibilty, you can practically see your own nosewheel.

If anyone ever does a poll, please count me as a Bill Greenwood fan.

[marine air]

Well this has been interesting. Vlado ,no offense taken; big fan of your flying. The T-34 and T-28 guys still do them and beyond that mostly what I recall seeing are "close proximity: or staggered landings.
Changing the subeject to Formation Takeoffs for a moment, yesterday I watched two VMA-323 AV-8B Harriers takeoff off together at (TYS) Knoxville. They lined up on the runway, then the first one slammed the throttle forward and accelerated while Number 2 was stationary. The moment the wheels were off the ground on #1, then #2 slammed the throttle to the stops and was just a few seconds in trail. I wondered why two combat pilots chose that spacing.
It reminded me of an event back in the 1980's. We had a C.O. named Col. D.A. Marshall a highly decorated vietnam A-4 pilot with over 200 missions and a consummate pilot. He started training our pilots to do formation takeoffs in pairs. Pilots from Wing headquarters started showing up in a A-4's to evaluate and train with our squadron. Among other things the told COl. D.A. Marshall, to quit doing formation takeoffs and other wartime practices in peacetime. Our squadron went on a deployment to Canada, where Col Marshall. commenced to train 3 ship formation takeoffs. He also buzzed the tower in a three ship formation so close that the Canadian ATC got upset and called the Fourth Marine Air Wing on this matter.
Shortly thereafter, Col. D.A.Marshall received a phone call telling him a Senior Colonel from the Wing was flying up to see him the next morning in his office at 8 a.m. By 8:30 a.m. he had been fired and retired from the Marine Corps. He walked out of his office a civilian! A reservist and pilot for TWA stationed in St. Louis, he returned home and other than his brother Major Wayne Marshall still flying in our unit, all the neato combat stuff we enlisted non pilots thought was neat , vanished from the unit.
I ran into his brother , airline pilot, Wayne Marshall at Oshkosh around 1991 or 1993 with Ed and Connie Bowlin. IIRC, the story he told me was that his brother , after having his career end abruptly by the Marine Corps, had rejoined the military as a captain in the Mo. ANG which had an A-10 unit. He rose again in rank to Lt. COl and commanded a squadron of A-10's in Desert Storm.
Just an interesting story about something a guy thought was safe enough to practice in peacetime, while others of equal rank and stature thought was dangerous enough to be a career ender.

[muddyboots]

I bet he also thought it was NECCESSARY darn been counters have cost more men than the enemy ever has. Sweat in peacetime saves blood in combat, ya know?

[EDowning]

Hey Marineair,

Since you're highly concerned about formation landings and you and your buddy are seemingly the only ones still doing them, couldn't you guys just stop and solve the whole problem? Just kidding.

The problem with formation landings obviously rests with the lack of visibility in the tailwheel fighters. However, another aspect to be considered is the risk of loss of control after touchdown (ground loop), even if reduced visibility were ultimately not a factor. May have been a factor in this most recent incident. Even just doing separation landings the visibility can pose an additional risk.

I read your post about flying the Lear 35 and you remarked about "when you get a warbird", just curious, what type will you get?

[airnutz]

The problem with formation landings obviously rests with the lack of visibility in the tailwheel fighters. However, another aspect to be considered is the risk of loss of control after touchdown (ground loop), even if reduced visibility were ultimately not a factor. May have been a factor in this most recent incident.

From witnesses I understood the Hurri groundlooped..but by the photos, she was only half way there.
As the preliminary report revealed..the right brake failed and she swung into Bills path.
I was wondering why the first bird touching down was assigned the "far lane" from immediately available
left turnoff? Were they landed long and was the midfield turnoff unavailable as an option?

[Matt Gunsch]

The problem with formation landings obviously rests with the lack of visibility in the tailwheel fighters. However, another aspect to be considered is the risk of loss of control after touchdown (ground loop), even if reduced visibility were ultimately not a factor. May have been a factor in this most recent incident.

From witnesses I understood the Hurri groundlooped..but by the photos, she was only half way there.
As the preliminary report revealed..the right brake failed and she swung into Bills path.
I was wondering why the first bird touching down was assigned the "far lane" from immediately available
left turnoff? Were they landed long and was the midfield turnoff unavailable as an option?

When doing a staggered landing, the lead lands on the upwind side of the runway, so his wake turbulance drifts off the runway and not into the landing path of his wingman, so sometimes he will land on the left side, other times on the right.

In the FAST program, all types do formation takeoffs, in 2 ships elements. Depending on the brief, the next element will start thier takeoff roll either when the tailwheel of the lead plane comes off the ground, or when the wheels of the lead element leave the ground.

The only types that do formation landings are nose wheel type aircraft, ie, T-34, T-28, T-33, F-86.

Formation landing can be done in tailwheel types, but it is not required in the FAST program.

To those that were quoting FAA OPS for staggered landings, one thing to remember, that only applies when the airport is under ATC control. Most airshows are in waivered airspace, and under the control of a airboss during the time the waiver is in effect, and he is in charge of the airport and airspace operations at the time of the show.

For those that would like to learn more about formation flying rules we fly by, get a copy of the T-34 Formation manual, it can be purchased from the EAA. That book is what the FAST program operates on.

[bipe215]

Matt,

Don't you mean the downwind side of the runway?

Steve G

[Matt Gunsch]

yeh I did, hey, I just woke up when I posted that

[Randy Haskin]

yesterday I watched two VMA-323 AV-8B Harriers takeoff off together at (TYS) Knoxville. They lined up on the runway, then the first one slammed the throttle forward and accelerated while Number 2 was stationary. The moment the wheels were off the ground on #1, then #2 slammed the throttle to the stops and was just a few seconds in trail. I wondered why two combat pilots chose that spacing.

That's called an interval takeoff and is the military fighter community's standard departure, since we go darn near everywhere as a formation.

Some times, such as when carrying live ordnance, or when the runway is wet, or over a certain crosswind, we're not allowed to perform formation takeoffs. In my experience in the USAF, we do about 95% interval takeoffs and 5% formation takeoffs. Most of the time we do form takeoffs (and landings, for that matter) because we have to in order to stay current. Unlike in your story, the USAF does not consider formation takeoffs and landings to be combat-only, nor particularly dangerous or risky. I've never seen nor heard of jets swapping paint during either maneuver in the 13 years I've been in the USAF. I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't heard of it.

It's always based on a time interval...10 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds...all depends on what kind of spacing you want on departure.

In the AT-38 we used 10" interval takeoffs, as that allowed the wingman to rejoin to close formation about 5-7 miles downrange, right about the first turn out of traffic on the departure. In the F-15E we use 20" interval, as that gives us 2 miles of trail on departure in case we need to go through the weather.

Last edited by Randy Haskin on Sun May 11, 2008 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Randy Haskin]

When doing a staggered landing, the lead lands on the upwind side of the runway, so his wake turbulance drifts off the runway and not into the landing path of his wingman

This is true for either formation takeoffs/landings or interval (staggered) takeoffs/landings. The wind sock tail always points at the side of the runway lead lines up on.

[PeterA]

From witnesses I understood the Hurri groundlooped..but by the photos, she was only half way there.
As the preliminary report revealed..the right brake failed and she swung into Bills path.
I was wondering why the first bird touching down was assigned the "far lane" from immediately available
left turnoff? Were they landed long and was the midfield turnoff unavailable as an option?

Airnutz,

Ah the photos. They puzzled me for several days until I saw the shot from the heli or whatever.

From the principal photos posted you must decide whether the aircraft were landing R-L or L-R.

For what it is worth, and until an official report or video surfaces, and assuming the several reports of a ground loop to left by the Hurricane to be correct :-

I would suggest the Hurricane ground looped left for about 320 degrees before being impacted by the starboard wing of the unsighted Spitfire, which passed over the Hurricane tailplane, taking out the fin and rudder, the tip of the Spitfire wing also collecting the Hurricane port aileron area. This impact swung the Hurricane right through 200 degrees and it rolled forward across the runway. The long moment arm of the Spitfire wing impact point, and the forward energy of the Spitfire, swung the Spitfire violently to the right, overloading the port undercarriage to the point where it retracted inboard on the pintle taking out the undercarriage lock, retract ram, spar web etc. The port wing leading edge then grounded leading to the prop also grounding at idle, shortening a couple of the blades to 25%. The Spitfire arrested having swung through 180 degrees to the landing direction.

If my hypothesis is correct I think the Hurricane pilot can thank BigG for not having him a fraction of a second late on his trajectory.

Having flown in the Spitfire a number of times in the past 36 years, I am truly thankful the pilots escaped without injury.

Both aircraft are clearly re-buildable but I would not expect too much change out of $1m and a couple of years before we see them flying again, notwithstanding any insurance litigation.

PeterA