Warbird Information Exchange

Hi all, just a quick question, is it worthwhile going after aircraft that have resided in Brackish water for 60 odd years?

Climate -Hot arid , water Brackish/Marsh. Aircraft rumoured to be substantially complete, but would it just disintegrate exposed to air?

If anyone knows the answer , I'd appreciate it.

Regards

Tony

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So there I was , with nothing on the clock except the makers' name, and that was in Hindustani and fast disappearing...

Tony,

Not a definite answer but more an assumption.

Brackish water means less salt than seawater. So the risk of corrosion is less than if the aircraft would be submerged in seawater (Ok, so far so good).

Speaking form experience in Holland, where the upper part of the IJsselmeer is brackish because of the sluices regulating water from the salt Waddenzee, there is more corrosion than if the water was purely fresh, but also that depends on conditions such as what does the bottom consist of. Clay preserves better than sand etc.

Pheew Tony, don't you have any simple questions?

Bottom line is, if it's rare and worthwhile, get it out anyway.

Hth (a bit)
Cheers

Cees

Cees , I'm counting on the climate being hot and arid, to have reduced the salt content . But maybe not, ecological regimes are not my strong suit. Do you think the climate has anything to do with the detioration, or was the airframe submerged in your case?

Aircraft is half-rare, and a good candidate for recovery without having to re-mortgage the house and then hoping to get a good result on e-bay to pay for it etc etc.

Not sure how much is in there, but it's worth me going to have a look at it, if only to photo and catalogue (Don't you just love these airfare wars?)

Besides which , if it's a no joy, I can still get 5 days of beer and beach away from the Future Mrs. Tony.

Now that has to be a bonus!

Cheers Cees

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So there I was , with nothing on the clock except the makers' name, and that was in Hindustani and fast disappearing...

Hey Tony,

What's that stuff about the future Mrs Tony. So the blonde turned out to be Mrs. Right?


The wreck I was referring to (a Lancaster) is lying in the northern part of the IJsselmeer and only partly covered in sand so the rest is lying mostly on top of it. If the water temperature is reasonably low it has a better chance of preserving metal. I was always told that heat speeds up any process.

The general condition is reasonably good but electrolytic corrosion is quite severe in places, but paintwork has survived generally well, although some species of barnacle (or similar) haven't been too kind in places to the aluminium.

Cheers

Cees

The Blonde has beaten me into submission Cees, she is a very determined woman

So I figure I've got a year of adventuring at the outside, before it's time to think of becoming domesticated.

Let's hope she never says 'It's me or Aircraft' because she is not going to like that answer

Ok, well good news and bad news re. Local Air temperature. I would have hoped that being about a bloody mile from the sun would have somehow preserved the airframe?

Where's Brandon, he knows these things....

The only option I think Cees , is to go and look at the darn thing.

Oh well, best read up on the sort of marine life that hates aluminium in those parts.

Cheers Mucker

Tony

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So there I was , with nothing on the clock except the makers' name, and that was in Hindustani and fast disappearing...

You might want to verify the timetable to ensure that the train doesn't pull out of the station before you are ready to make that trip. I'm no chemist nor do I play one on TV, but...

Chemical reactions typically work faster at higher temperature. My understanding is also that shallow wrecks are more likely to see higher concentrations of oxygen, especially if there are waves or strong currents.

In the end though you never really know. You might have Swiss cheese on one side of a lake, yet good sound metal on the other. Too many factors at play.

cees what of the zuider zee??? isn't that in holland?? the source of countless ww 2 wrecks, excavations, artifacts etc?? all concentrated in 1 limited body of water / marshland that is being drained for what ever purpose?? it has been like the mother load of gold strikes from a historical standpoint in the last 30 years. the most recent to my knowledge was a p-47 with pilot recovered around the mid 90's who was mia all those years. he lived in ohio, 2 hours to the east of me during the war. the mud supposedly has done a banner job in preservation in most finds from what i recall. do to acidity?? depth, water clarity?? all of the above?? enlighten me!! tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

This might help
http://www.a1.nl/nfla/nfla~gb.html

Dave

Hi

Daves suggestions/site is great - other things to consider
1) rainfall - rinses salt encrustation off on exposed aircraft
2) Acidity of the Water and soil - take a Ph Kit with you
3) Oxygen content of the water is more critical than the temp - test that too - higher oxygen - higher corrosion

regards
John P

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Air Vice Marshall
Sunshine State Air Farce

Dave , John and Brandon,

Thanks very much for that. I've just sent an email to the University that first alerted me to this , with a request to speak to someone in the department concerned with measurements and studies of the area.

Don't know how long that will take, but we'll see.

The bottom line is still 'Go and take a shufti'

Good Hey , at worst , it's still an interesting discovery.

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So there I was , with nothing on the clock except the makers' name, and that was in Hindustani and fast disappearing...

Tom,

Please have a look at http://www.pagowirense.nl/wr-his7a.asp !
The remains of Frank were brought home.


Regards,

Paul

paul, that's the one!! he was from steubenville ohio which is near the ohio pennsylvania border. i appreciate the update after all these years, & the pics which i've never seen up to now!! if you want detailed info on the personal aspects of the pilot i'll send you info from a local newspaper article on the wreck find from 1993. i saved it for my files. let me know!! thanks for the link info!! regards, tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Interesting story.... what happened to the wreck?

Cheers,
Richard

You mean besides the fact they tore the wings off during recovery?

i'd like to know the disposition of the recovery too, especially as it involved a past ohioan. tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!