Warbird Information Exchange

$ 20.00 a day? last time I went it was $38.00 a day plus $4.00 for bottled water, $6.00 for a Mcdonalds hamburger $7.00 to park ect. ect. ect. were does all of it go? to the pope of course. Does it cost them anything to give out a extra wrist band ?Not likely they make millions every year at the gate but if no one comes in their A/C who would go? Fuel costs alone would keep me home I think someone is maqking a lot of money off our interests in aviation bottom line

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

I just bought my tickets on line for $21.00 a day if you are an EAA Member. There are EAA volunteers and employees on this thread that already answered your question of where it goes. It goes to the EAA, you know a group that fights for the rights of pilots along side the AOPA. The top officials in the FAA are mainly made up of people that don't fly. There was a recent article in the Atlantic Flyer about it. It gave a break down of the top 30 people in the FAA and none of them were pilots. So it is nice to have a group that will fight for you that actually has the best interest of aviation at heart.
If you don't like Oshkosh, then don't go. But don't sit here and bitch that you can't pile 8 people in a single engine and get them all in for free, and that someone gave you not a great attitude about it. If some one pulls up to a parking space in a Ferrari and asks for some change for the meter, that is going to make me wonder too. If you don't want to go fine, if you don't like it fine, But if you feel that way, just shut up and don't go, rather than bash an airshow, museum, and organization many people here work for, volunteer for, and enjoy.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

That's the kind of pissy attitute and remark that caused Arlington EAA Fly-In to go from 104 warbirds one year to 3 the next. Not counting gas the cost of an to take the AD from STL to Oshkosh is immense. A little support to guys like Eric is a good thing. After all if it wasn't for the folks like him bringing their a/c to display ( or in his case 3 inc the Yale) there wouldn't be a Oshkosh.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Couple of things for you to reference:

Ticket costs for AirVenture:
Adult Ticket for the entire week: $100 for members, $185 for non-members
Adult Daily ticket: $21/day for members, $33/day for non-members.

For everything you get access to at AirVenture, I'd say that's a bargain.

Food costs (while high) are comparable to any other large-venue event.

You want to know where the money goes??? This answer comes straight from EAA's Vice-President of Membership Adam Smith - he's about as high up as you can go in the organization without being named Tom Poberezny:

"At a ballpark level I'd say we spend approx $12 million to put on the event, but that's not counting the amazing volunteer and in-kind support that the aviation community provides at all levels. Our income from all sources (admissions, camping, exhibitors and sponsors are the main categories) is also approx $12 million. (These numbers smooth over time, we have recently paid-off the loans on the site improvements of the 1990s and - to meet attendee expectations - are about to embark on more improvements).

I think there's something of a tendency to look at the revenue generated by AirVenture and to wonder 'where does the money all go'?...sometimes there is an implied or direct suggestion that somehow EAA or the Poberezny family is 'profiting' from the event. To those people I first point out the gigantic scale of AirVenture; the huge costs of insurance; the costs of keeping 2,000 acre site with over 150 buildings - used for only 1 week per year - in immaculate condition; the enormous costs of providing amenities, for public safety and convenience...police, fire, ambulance, transportation, waste disposal, security, wi-fi, ticketing, KidVenture, evening entertainments; $12 million starts to look pretty cheap. We are building, running and dismantling a small city... I would love to know of any comparable event run on such a small budget...but, cheap as we are, there are still bills to pay and we do need to find ways to raise the money to pay them.

On the suggestions of financial impropriety, we can say that EAA is a properly run nonprofit organization with a Board of Directors and very well-audited accounts. Some suggestion I've read on the web are tantamount to accusing EAA of breaking the law. We abide by the law governing nonprofit organizations.

At the end of the day we operate for the benefit of our membership and to forward the mission of EAA to promote and grow aviation. EAA is not driven by money, we are driven by our mission. Money is a necessary evil that helps us accomplish our mission.

While, with 165,000 members we may not perfectly meet the precise expectations of every individual (and I suspect that every one of the 165,000 would contribute their 2c on how EAA's budget should be run), our honest intent is to serve the whole community as best we can."

Can't think of anything else to add, other than you are really looking at the event with blinders on if all you can complain about is the cost of food for the day and a couple of passes. I hope you never go to a MLB ballgame or NFL game, or any big music concert, as the costs are going to shock the heck out you...

Zack

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Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org

There is really no reason to beat a dead horse on this subject. It's a purely free market situation. If Osh Kosh appeals to warbird owners, then they will have plenty of warbirds there. If it doesn't, fewer will be there. My prediction is that the trend of fewer and fewer warbirds in attendance continues. It really doesn't matter one way or the other if any are there, there is virtually no requirement either way.

I will continue to pay my dues to EAA and EAA Warbirds in any regard.

BTW, what one does with their car, of course, has nothing to with this topic, as usual.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

I have not been to Oshkosh in some time, in addition to your daily EAA member fee ($21), is there an additional fee for a campsite per day? Is there a fee to park an aircraft per day? Just curious.

Steve G

MustangDriver:

I think you are missing Eric's point here a bit. He isn't asking Oshkosh or EAA to pay him what he normally gets for an airshow. I am betting that he generally gets an appearance fee, a rental car, hotel rooms, fuel, food, plus passes for him as his crew when he goes to an airshow. Even with all that he still isn't coming close to breaking even on the cost of operation of his airplane. I know that to be true, because I have operated a heavy multi-engine warbird on the airshow circuit. He is making a SIGNIFICANT donation by showing up at Airventure with his airplane. I don't want to reopen the argument about whether free passes should be given or not, but I I do want to point out the extreme costs that are incurred to get to an event. This cannot be discounted.

Hi Steve,

This link should provide you with some answers. All campsites, including camping with your aircraft, are $20 per night. I don't believe there is an additional parking fee for aircraft, but I'll check and get back to you.

Zack

http://www.airventure.org/2008/planning ... craft.html

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Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org

One EAA admission - $21

One parking fee - $7

One bottled water - $4

All of the sharing of ideas in this thread - pricele$$.

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

Feel? What are you a Democrat?

This is a simple proposition. Just consider the warbird owner as a seller of services and the airshow as the buyer.

As a warbird owner I have expenses- fuel, insurance, my time, wear and tear/maintenance, etc.

As the airshow, I want you to show up in your fancy plane. I can offer fuel, tickets, the comeraderie between aviators, judging competitions, free ice cream, and all manner of things.

Oshkosh doesn't seem to do much negotiation. I guess they have their way of doing things and you as the aircraft operator can take it or leave it. Other shows may be willing to pay a premium if your aircraft fits within a theme that they want to promote.

A few admission tickets costs the EAA what- a few dollars in actual cost? How much service does EAA actually provide for each ticket? I would think that the infrastructure costs per ticket are minimal considering the number of people that go there. Eric's 5 passengers more than likely make up for the expenses of their tickets just in concession fees and in exchange EAA gets a cool aircraft on the line. Apparently they are not interested. That's fine, but I too am not interested in going because of all the airplanes that didn't go there. I feel that what Eric was requesting was entirely reasonable.

P.S. This is all meant to be good natured discussion and we can happily agree to disagree.

I tell you one thing this isn't a great year for airshow organizers. The cost of fuel has not only decreased the profit margins for an event but it has reduced the amount of people willing to go to an event. Many people are now considering that it may cost them a hundred or more dollars just in fuel to get to an event and back in their car. Attendance is down, costs are up, insurance is through the roof. It used to be that airshows could help leverage things by getting fuel at wholesale cost and then providing much of their payment though fuel which would end up costing them less than giving cash to owners and it was sort of win win for everyone. Now fuel profit margins are much lower per gallon because most fuel wholesale/resale markup is done by a dollar amount as opposed to a percentage. Airshows can't leverage much getting fuel at wholesale anymore.

There seems to be a general misnomer that those who hold airshows are rolling in cash afterward. Now I would agree the Airventure is probably doing well just by the sheer numbers of attendees and it probably a very profitable event for the EAA. It really is the small airshows that you will see disappear in the near future in favor of fewer but bigger less personal events. Next year will probably be the last year we hold our annual fly-in as it has no longer possible to profit from the event and more and more sponsors don't want to make any contributions that will go towards fuel for aircraft since it becomes a liability issue for them.

I know it is the same case for warbird owners as well. It costs a small fortune to go around the pattern in a heavy twin in fuel alone. Talking to Carl Scholl this weekend he told me they rarely do events anymore as most can not afford to bring in the heavy twins. Many of the B-25 owners I speak to tell me that they are flying less and less.

Eric it sure does, just on a smaller scale. I have a restored 1969 Dodge Charger. It is a General Lee car owned by Warner Bros. at one time, and now owned by myself. My family and I restored the car. It is my hobby, toy whatever you want to call it. Does it cost me money for fuel, parts, oil, tires, and so on? Sure does. Do I EVER make anything on it? no. It's not a business but a past time I enjoy. I took it to the Nationals and got no money for that. And yes, I had to pay my way in. Why go? because I enjoy the atmosphere and seeing the other cool cars. It is the EXACT same thing. So while I do appreciate that you do it on a much larger scale, to say that I am so far off topic is wrong.

Can we agree to disagree? Sure. We are different people and that's cool. But saying that EAA has a bad attitude isn't cool either. Reread your first post. "I'll just go to Sturgis anyway, it's more fun." Well that's not a great attitude either.

A friend of mine had health issues last year at Oshkosh. He was bummed out about it afterward, and I wanted to do something for him. He is in his mid 70's. He has worked on aircraft almost his whole life. When the FAA turned him down for the master mechanic award because he was 4 months shy of the time needed, I turned to the EAA. He had always wanted a Lifetime membership, and just was never in the position to do so. I asked the EAA if they would give me a deal on a Lifetime mebership for someone of that situation. They said they couldn't make a discount, but would see what they could do. They gave him a lifetime membership. They said his spirit of aviation was the true sense of what the EAA was about. Not bad for a place that is only worried about money?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Mustangdriver wrote:

What more could possibly be said? End of thread.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

I'm sorry? Did you bother to read the whole thread?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Mustangdriver wrote:

Yes, I read the entire post. When the discussion degenerates into comparing Clone carshows to Airshows, I don't really care to continue. I'm sure it's very interesting for Boss Hogg and Cooter though.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."