New Discovery Channel series "Showdown: Air Combat"

[Dudley Henriques]

Well ok I'll give you my thoughts:

What a terrible show.

(Caveat: I saw all of the first show and half of the second).

The vaunted air combat setups are nothing more than formation flying of the two adversaries and an occasional weaving back and forth.

Somebody needs to fire the writer - Moga's lines are cheesy and over the top.

I do like the cockpit descriptions.

Dogfights was a clearly superior format and presentation. Much more informative.

I'm not surprised. Any meaningful comparison between competing fighters would involve maneuvering in each airplane's flight envelope in excess of where the average warbird owner would feel comfortable putting a million dollar plus airplane.
I can't speak for other warbird pilots, but I seldom put a WW2 fighter in the air with the intention of putting more than 4 or so g's on it.
In any serious maneuvering situation involving the seeking of advantage, the airplane will be above corner at least part of the time and loading it above corner can take the airplane out further in g than the average owner might want to be.

I haven't seen the show and am not familiar with the format, but if real aircraft are being used, what I've said here might be the cause for what you saw on the screen.
Hope this helps a bit.

My beef is the fact that the advertisements suggest the battle will be "re-created" using flyable warbirds, and then showing some - admittedly nice - formation flying and a couple of weaves. If owners/pilots of the warbirds don't want to do much more than weaves that's fine by me - just don't advertise it as anything else.

What Moga does is discuss the various design choices between the two a/c and detail how that translates into performance differences. Fair enough. So why not give a little low-stress demo
without risking much. For example, they could have done a nice, sedate 2G turn in, say, the Zero and the P-38 (Episode 2) and that would show the viewer who has the advantage after 180, 360, etc degrees of turn. They could have even started off at the opposite sides of the circle. Are they showing the two a/c maxed out in the turn? No. But you don't need to run them that hard to provide an illustration.

They could have started each a/c in line abreast, and put them both in a climb, and viewers might see the difference in performance. And maybe (in the case of various a/c matchups) show that done at different altitudes.

Whether those sorts of visual demonstrations would be entertaining is a different question.

But again, my beef is with the advertisement vs what is delivered.

You probably have a point. That's Hollywood!!! ))

How these shows usually get started is that somebody with the "idea" pitches the powers that be (the producers) and a meeting is held. The problem usually arises when they actually go out and contract the owners of the birds. The guys like having the airplanes featured but when the wheels hit the wells it's the owners who determine how much actual stress they want on their airplanes, and this is the way it should be.
I agree that the hype on a show like this will exceed what the owners most likely will allow and that the end result will be less than the hype.

As for the format to compare dissimilar fighters; the only way this can be done realistically is to have each aircraft at 50% fuel and head to head. Even then, the unknown factor, and perhaps the most important factor of all will be missing from the equation; that being the difference between the cockpits, or who is flying what )

Bottom line is that in my opinion anyway, any dogfight show featuring actual WW2 fighters being flown by their owners will reflect the care and concern those owners have for these aircraft, so the hype will exceed the result.

[Saville]

The discussion led me to think:

what could they demonstrate with the warbirds that would be interesting, informative, and safe?

1) The P-38 has a very distinctive planform and is rather large for that era.

- put the Zero and P-38 some distance away from the T-6 chase plane - both side view and planform - and show how the P-38 could be seen earlier (as it's larger) and is more easily recognizable (planform).


2) Quite often bomber pilots mistook the P-51 for an ME-109

- Have them do a fairly rapid flyby past the camera-ready chase plane, at typical attack distances, and demonstrate to the viewers how this could easily be so.


3) Shaw spoke of the Break Turn to thwart an attack

- That ought to be easily demonstrable without endangering any a/c. The camera could be in an attacking chase plane, and then the chase plane filming the attack from off to the side as the two historical adversaries demonstrate..


4) Hi, and low yo-yo

Don't know if they'll mention this in future shows but it can be safely filmed from both inside the chase, and by the chase.


5) Lag Roll

Robert S. Johnson used this maneuver to get inside a German a/c. Film from inside the chase and outside.


6) High Side attack

- Shaw discussed the High Side attack and they did a pretty good graphic of it. Show the users what it looks like from inside the chase plane.


Anyways putting the viewer in the cockpit - even if it's only the T-6 - would be pretty good and safe, in my opinion.

[jph712]

I liked the show all in all. I just found listening to the host narrate thru the Texan's intercom was distracting. Did anyone else notice this?

[The Inspector]

Ditto the ditto to what Saville and Cripes a Mighty have stated. This is an awful presentation of warbirds and I agree that "DOGFIGHTS" was and is a much better program.
Alright, I know that the real aircraft are very valuable so we aren't going to see eyeball popping turns and rolls, but please lose the lawnmower engine sounds and the seventh grade narration, stop pandering to Joe Beercan the armchair explorer, or is this the modern day equivalant to those 'REAL GUTS' magazines that were so popular in the 50's and 60's?
(OK men, hit the water the Sarge growled...what an awful sight! 45 grown men punching and slapping innocent water)

[Saville]

You probably have a point. That's Hollywood!!! ))

Quite true....that's Hollywood.

[Saville]

Ditto the ditto to what Saville and Cripes a Mighty have stated. This is an awful presentation of warbirds and I agree that "DOGFIGHTS" was and is a much better program.
Alright, I know that the real aircraft are very valuable so we aren't going to see eyeball popping turns and rolls, but please lose the lawnmower engine sounds and the seventh grade narration, stop pandering to Joe Beercan the armchair explorer, or is this the modern day equivalant to those 'REAL GUTS' magazines that were so popular in the 50's and 60's?
(OK men, hit the water the Sarge growled...what an awful sight! 45 grown men punching and slapping innocent water)

Absolutely on the "7th grade narration" - couldn't have described it better myself.

As for stop pandering to Joe Beercan.......

Shaw tells me he's read the entire scripts for all the shows (he provides commentary in each show).....he tells me it doesn't get much better. He also said the show weren't written for people like me - which means WIX'ers, too.

So I suspect the targeting of Joe Beercan was precisely chosen.

[dred]

I think Maj. Moga is a great guy. But the "over-the-radio" style of narration is almost un-listenable. Next time it's on I'm going to turn down the volume and play some music while watching the picture.

[Glyn]

I can't believe so many people even bother to watch The Discovery Channel. From what I've seen it is banal and lightweight.

[Cripes A Mighty]

I think Maj. Moga is a great guy. But the "over-the-radio" style of narration is almost un-listenable. Next time it's on I'm going to turn down the volume and play some music while watching the picture.

Ya know thats a pretty good idea ya got there. Some Zepplin might go well with it maybe. I think I'll try that tonight as I havent watched the F4F v. Zero episode yet.

[Dudley Henriques]

I think Maj. Moga is a great guy. But the "over-the-radio" style of narration is almost un-listenable. Next time it's on I'm going to turn down the volume and play some music while watching the picture.

Ya know thats a pretty good idea ya got there. Some Zepplin might go well with it maybe. I think I'll try that tonight as I havent watched the F4F v. Zero episode yet.

Did you say Zeppelin? How about the Goodyear Blimp? Sort of gives a new meaning to BFM;( Blimp Fundamental Maneuvering)
The blimp is actually quite capable of many crowd pleasing maneuvers.
A typical aerobatic sequence is as follows;
It enters the show line and makes it to show center as the crowd goes to lunch and returns. Then, at show center it pulls up into a graceful whale roll followed by a poop loop.
Exiting the show area to the left it makes an extremely tight 3 state turn around and sets up for the finale; a high speed gas pass. A crewman hangs out of the gondola and pokes a hole in the rear of the blimp. This acellerates the blimp ala Issac Newton to a speed of .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000002 Mach. As the crowd rises to it's feet (They all sat down during the 3 state turn around), the blimp pushes up into it's final maneuver at show center; a 4 point gas bag hesitation roll into an inverted hissout!

Now THIS would REALLY sell!!!!!

[Cripes A Mighty]

Well I see where you are coming from

BUT

I meant Led Zeppelin like as in Jimmy Page and Robert Plant

[Dudley Henriques]

Well I see where you are coming from

BUT

I meant Led Zeppelin like as in Jimmy Page and Robert Plant

I see )

Well, Ihave to admit itmight not be all that good an idea to have the Goodyear Blimp flying acro with all THAT rock!!!! )

[TonyM]

The crash of Richard Bong 6 August 1945 (P-80A # 44-85048)

There is a factual error in the Bong episode:

Bong did not maneuver the P-80 to crash in a field between houses as suggested by the program's writers. The official AAF Form No. 14 Aircraft Accident Report indicates that Bong bailed out of the P-80 and was killed when he struck the ground after his parachute fouled on the tail surfaces.

The following is an excerpt from the official AAF Form No. 14 Aircraft Accident Report:

"...[It] is the opinion of the investigating board that the pilot cleared the cockpit shortly after the aircraft began its downward dive, following the ship very close. Evidence of the parachute shroud lines [coming in contact with the] leading edge portion of the tail surfaces and the rip cord being pulled indicated that the parachute fouled on the tail surface."

A detailed summary concerning the crash of Richard Bong on 6 August 1945 can be found on page 1150 of Volume III of FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945.

Tony Mireles

[Randy Haskin]

what could they demonstrate with the warbirds that would be interesting, informative, and safe?
3) Shaw spoke of the Break Turn to thwart an attack

4) Hi, and low yo-yo

5) Lag Roll

6) High Side attack

I haven't seen the show, but the criticism laid out here is not surprising.

I wanted to note that the items listed here as suggested topics for the show are very difficult to film in such a way to make it viewable on television.

The most likely reason that the footage on the show consists of aircraft essentially flying in formation with one another is because in real combat maneuvering aircraft aren't close enough to look good in a single television frame. This is why no film or television program since He11's Angels has ever depicted the aerial dogfight anywhere close to realistically...because it just doesn't look that interesting to have a couple of hard-to-identify specks moving around against a gigantic horizon that dominates the frame.

So, while the ideas are certainly interesting brain food for the anorak crowd, they would be quite unwatchable if realistically depicted.

On top of that, filming them such that the viewer can see and understand what is happening is VERY difficult. I used to teach dogfighting in my last assignment, and I attempted to film what some of the maneuvers looked like as a teaching aid for the students. I tried to film from the offender's aircraft, the defender's aircraft, and an outside chase aircraft. None of the attempts to film the maneuvers produced anything that made sense when it was viewed later outside the context of that specific dogfight. The biggest challenge was safely flying the photo chase aircraft around the 4G turn circle, staying close enough to the maneuvering aircraft so that the video meant something, yet staying safely clear of both jets involved.

There's a reason that what is depicted below is still a valid instructional technique, even well into the digital video and high-tech simulator age:

[6trn4brn]

As has been the case so many times...interesting and informative comments here on good ole WIX!

I was wondering if anyone else thought some of the commentary by Major Moga was a bit in the style of 50ish movies. But, as one of ya'll pointed out, the show is not really for the very informed crowd here at WIX, but more toward Joe Beercan (that would be me )

Too cool to sit and watch the show on the BoobTube and then come in here and see what ya'll had to say to either give more info or correct some of the errors made. I for one did not know that Bong died as a result of getting caught in/on his doomed aircraft.

Keep up the good work fellas...any and all comments appreciated.