Randy Haskin wrote:
CAPFlyer wrote:
The last time there was an attempt of showing any sort of major WWII air combat on television using the real airplanes was "Black Sheep Squadron". Most (if not all) of the filmmakers and camera crews who participated in that have long retired, so a lot of what they learned and how they figured out how to shoot that kind of "action" has gone out the window. Then again, many of the shots in Black Sheep were very like the ones in Air Combat - a Zero Replica and a Corsair zig-zagging. Heck, I think the most "action" that they really got other than the long shots of the "first pass" was planes making passes at transports or bombers where you'd seen them pass between the "target" and the camera plane.
I still can't say that I've ever seen any film or television show that even remotely touches what actual dogfighting looks like. Anything on Baa Baa Black Sheep, or in the Battle of Britain, or any other fails to capture how actual fighter v fighter maneuvering appears.
The show "American Fighter Pilot" -- the one on CBS that spectacularly flopped circa 2002 -- came the closest that I have ever seen, as it had cameras located on jets that were actually dogfighting. Even then, the way the footage was edited failed to show how the fights actually took place.
Harry Saltzman got close back in 69 with the BoB shoot. He brought in a bunch of the guys from Harlingen Texas and had a great second unit aerial director.
The problem they faced then is the same today. You can get some great footage air to air at distance where perspective takes in the total picture and both aircraft are in frame, but in close, you lose it.
For instance, in the BoB shoot, they managed to get an absolute textbook example of a descending vertical rolling scissors between a Mk9 Spit and one of the Spanish 109's as the 109 followed the Spit down and the Spit performed a classic scissors forcing the overshoot in the vertical plane by the 109. He actually threw him out of the helix.
It was gorgeous! It was also pre-briefed!

)
In close however, all viewer perspective is lost.
Pertaining to another poster referencing speeds for maneuvering WW2 fighters;
One has to consider that for the purpose of demonstrating anything on film as relates to either BFM or ACM, we're talking the left side of the envelope be it a Viper or a Mustang. Corner speed on a P51 is about 260-270mph married to 8 g's.
I know I never took the 51 out to 8g's at any time and I don't know many owners who will take their Mustangs out that far either
Assuming most warbird owners won't be maneuvering their airplanes
anywhere near corner velocities producing turn rates and radius' available at Vc, I think what we're talking about here when we discuss a possible dogfight series using actual aircraft as opposed to digital replication is just more of the same thing; that being the low energy rolling type filming they have always ended up with

)))