Warbird Information Exchange

Hello all,

The Smithsonian deserves a combat history B-17. They preserved a B-17D when no one else did, and if NMUSAF wants it, the Shoo Shoo is a fair trade. The B-17F (Memphis Belle) and B-17G (SSSB) are in general appearances enough alike that NMUSAF does not really need the two of them. NASM has been extremely generous with NMUSAF, loaning restored aircraft such as the Loening seaplane and Sperry Messenger for decades and giving without asking for anything in return very rare aircraft like the Avro saucer and the P-75. What you are seeing is sheer greed on the part of the the air force museum.

That museum has a long and terrible history - the worst history of any aviation museum in the world - for which it is only now beginning to make amends. The present air force museum is the third on that site. The first museum was scrapped in the late 1920s; that collection if preserved would have been by far the best collection of early military aircraft in the world. The second museum was scrapped at the beginning of WWII; the only survivor of that colelction is the Bleriot trainer, which someone recovered from a trash heap and later returned to the USAF museum.

The present air force museum has its own stories, some of which has been discussed on this forum. I remember a tour of the storage areas many years ago when I found the Ryan X-13 outside with the cockpit open. The museum has regularly displayed aircraft and then rotated them to the scrapheap. My favorite example of this was the Korean Yak displayed in the Air Force Museum through the 1950s -- where is it now?

Mustangdriver has frequently lamblasted the NASM with unfair innuendo and errors of fact. MD has criticized NASM for displaying only a protion of Flak-Bait with reflecting on the fact that NASM has preserved such an aircraft in its original markings. It has been criticised for having two aircraft outside -- how many truly rare airplanes are still displayed at NMUSAF outdoors, never mind the many other aircraft at other airforce controlled museums. He has criticized NASM for storing the Helldiver for a year while preparing space at Udvar Hazy. To criticize other museums while failing to consider the problems of the museum that one champions is hypocracy.

A combat B-17 at Udvar Hazy will I think be seen by more people that at NMUSAF, and as it will not be among too many other WWII types might get more reflection from its visiters and serve greater educational purpose. NMUSAF does not need three combat B-17s when NASM has none, especially considering what NMUSAF has recieved over the years as gifts from NASM. As the the B-17G in storage at Udvar Hazy, that could then be given to some very deserving other museum. NASM record for such generosity is unmatched by any aviation museum anywhere.

So, MD, quit being the pot that calls the kettle black, and put some perspective into your messages.

Kevin,
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Kevin McCartney

You make a good point. Is there any possibility that the NMUSAF could get the remains of the 'Lady Be Good' from the Libyans? There is substantial wreckage albiet very rough but with their resources I'm sure they could make a good display of it, maybe restoring enough to make a diorama of the crash site for example. I sure am happy for the Swoose. Along with Flak Bait they are my favorite two aircraft.

.

Uh..OOO....Where did I put my helmet..........

They had a combat veteran B-17 for 60 years and never touched it.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

I had a very well written response, but the site lost it when I tried to post it. I will try again.

Is it greed? The NASM gave us Swoose because they said we can better take care and restore an aircraft of this nature. This still leaves them with a complete B-17G. They NASM states that they are not a military museum, so why is a combat veteran B-17 needed? Why not just a great example of a B-17? Like the one they have.
Memphis Belle and SSB belong in Dayton, and Swoose does just as much. SSB was the main B-17 displayed for years. Memphis Belle was SAVED, I am not going to sugar coat that. Having the Belle there is like the Baseball Hall of Fame having Babe Ruth in it. It just belongs. Swoose will be very well cared for.
Flack Bait is a whole different topic. Displaying just the nose section of her, is just not afitting anymore. It may have been in the 60's and 70's, but not by today's standards. She needs to be put together and put on display. Preserve it, don't restore it. If that happens at the NASM, great, if it takes place in Dayton, just as good. She is currently being damaged in parts where the public can touch the skin. Even the paint on an artifact of this nature, is part of it's history. This is perhaps one of the most important artifacts from WWII.
No organization is perfect. The NASM confuses me many times, and I do vent, but I am a fan of the collection. As for what the Air Force Museum did in the 1920's, I am not sure how to answer that. It's a different time. What was a great restoration in the 1970's is not a good one by today's standards. The bar has been raised for restorations of both static and flying warbirds.
The Nasm does have a great deal of aircraft on loan. How many aircraft are on display at the NASM that are on loan from the NMUSAF and NMNA? A good many.
Ther Helldiver belongs on display. There are currently 3 Cessna C-152's on display at the Udvar hazey. Couldn't they display one, and allow the other room for the helldiver? But instead it sits in storage.
The B-17's will be seen by more people at the NMUSAF. We get more visitors than the Udvar Hazeyt Facility. That was discussed in a thread on here not that long ago.
I am not sure where your anger is from, but the museum is a much different place than it was and it is getting better.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Not sure exactly why the National Air and Space Museum needs a combat veteran B-17 on display. If it were such a high priority, why was so much money and time put into the Japanese floatplane while Swoose sat and languished in total obscurity? Or all of the German WWII aircraft that have obviously had a lot of time and money put into them? Obviously, I am much too ignorant to understand why they have such a collection of German WWII aircraft on display. Yes, I understand that they saved those aircraft from the smelter, but in my mind, they would be much better suited on display at the NMUSAF to give some perspective of the adversarial aircraft from WWII. Never have been able to understand why so much time and money goes into restoring aircraft from other nations while significant aircaft from here (USA) sit and wait their turn.

Don't get me wrong here...I like visiting both museums, but for different reasons. The National Air and Space Museum is a great place to go and see the civilian planes that made history while the National Museum of the United States Air Force is where I go to see combat aircraft. Is either museum perfect? Not by a long shot. However, in my humble opinion, combat/military aircraft belong in a museum designed with the intent of displaying them without all of the goobleydygook in the background...civilian aircraft. I will continue visiting both museums...wondering why NASM has such a fine collection of Axis aircraft and the NMUSAF can't afford some 100 watt lightbulbs

Fire when ready

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.

Perhaps because they are in most cases one of a kind aircraft, which make them far more interesting than 'common' US types

my $1.50 worth

Common US types such as the only early model B-17? I don't want this to turn into a NASM bashing thing. I think it was great that they gave the Swoose to the NMUSAF. I think by doing that, we are going to get to see both Swoose, and the B-17G that is in storage on display. So for B-17 lovers it's a win, win. For fans of the NMUSAF more so, as there will now be 3 combat veteran B-17's at the NMUSAF.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

I happen to love both Museums but lets face it, the NASM has a less than sterling record itself. The Spirit of St. Louis for example is slowly deteriorating and it's cowling have turned gold from the varnish the museum sprayed on years ago to "protect" the flags. For some reason, they refuse to take action on one of this, one of their most important and historically significant aircraft. They also let a good part of their collection rot in the woods for years. Thanks to Paul Garber, those aircraft were saved from being lost forever (and he fought an uphill battle to do it). We all have skeletons in the closet apparently...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

I didn't say 'Model' I said 'TYPE'. There was a sweeping statement about Axis types at NASM , so my sweeping statement is the counter

We're cool man.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

any pictures yet?

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Magister Aviation
It's all in my book

Hmmm...I am not bashing either museum. As I said, I like both places for different reasons. One of the moderators here put it best when talking about people being a bit sensitive when they read what someone has posted..."things get lost in translation and not being able to put into words well enough sometimes hurts others feelings, sensitivity". Or something like that

I still have to question why the NASM needs a combat veteran B-17. And if the need is so great, why put so many resources into aircraft from foreign nations and not into the -17s that they have/had? Or, would they not be better served by working some sort of trade for the beautifully restored Axis aircraft that they have for a more significant aircraft that fits in with the idea of a National Air and Space Museum?

As someone else here put it, when ya go to the Baseball Hall of Fame, ya kinda expect that there will be something significant about Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb and not soccer displays (NOT bashing soccer). I expect to see significant milestone aircraft at the NASM like the Boeing 247, the magnificent 377 (???) and the first 707 among so many other significant milestone aircraft. It seems odd to me to see so many military aircaft at the NASM...but I am pretty odd anyways

Hope that clears the smoke up a bit...NOT BASHING either the NASM or the NMUSAF. I am not a Kool-aid drinker and see neither as being perfect...always room for improvement and critiquing

Now that I got that out of my system...any pix yet of the Swoose release from her prison cell yet?[/b]

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.

The NASM has (at least in the past) a very liberal bias and put much of it's resources into restoring Axis aircraft. It was only through great public outcry that the Enola Gay finally got rotated into the restoration lineup. Once complete, it's initial proposal for partial display in the downtown museum became a platform for "our brutality against the peace loving Japanese". The Air Force Association was furious as was Paul Tibbets (and a great number of Vets) and the display was scrapped and re-tooled. I believe the head of the Smithsonian quit, but he was representative of the leadership of the time...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

Just an update on the NASM B-17G from my contact there:

I had asked in 2006 about it:

"The B-17G we have is in the old Shuttle Building at Dulles. It is a partial. The airplane was a firefighter and was then partially brought back to operational condition--but it has a lot of work needed to make it a "real" B-17. The ass end was taken off several years ago and refurbished as part of the new military display at the National Museum of American History. It is in a display about Rosie the Rivetter. There are no plans to anything with the aircraft that I know of."

Then on Friday:

"Still about the same status. Swoose left Garber this morning for NMUSAF. There is talk about the -17G going to Savannah--Mighty Eighth AF Museum, but that is the talk. I've seen nothing official."

That's it!

Brian